Rape Culture

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
All right folks I have my two cents to share with you.

Thank you.

Your experience is as heartbreaking as it is inspiring. I hate the notion of what you went through, but love the disposition you've grown to espouse. Frankly, I wish those sons of yours were daughters because our country's young girls need empowering female role models like you. That said, I'm sure your boys will grow to become amazing men.

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
I didn't ask for it (although I have heard that crock of # before. I still ALWAYS use common freaking sense to try and avoid being a victim again.

1000 times this.

I think that's one of my main issues with this problem. It seems common sense is often being demonized, or twisted into "blaming the victim" to further a "Victim Culture" agenda.

For example, from the OP...

I'm sorry, but women shouldn't need to take self defense classes to protect themselves from rape #MissUSA

There is so much wrong with this that, as the meme goes, she's "not even wrong".

Of course women shouldn't need to take self defense classes to protect themselves from rape. Neither should men. There are far more frequent and likely dangers where such a course would be a valuable asset. Not to mention other benefits such as health/fitness, mental focus, and confidence that are all great for men and women alike.

As I said earlier "an individual is responsible for the image they project". A self defense course can absolutely help anyone project a more assertive and confident image. Some would like to reduce my earlier statement to a mere clothing reference, but image goes well beyond simply what someone is wearing. Criminals like muggers and rapists often target those who appear vulnerable, lost, unsure, shy, etc.. I simply don't understand why someone that young girls look up to would reduce the benefits of self defense to simply being "women shouldn't need to take self defense classes to protect themselves from rape". When did "you shouldn't have to look out for yourself because dangers shouldn't exist" become a positive message that somehow empowers young women?

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
Men can be raped by men and women! It happens. It's freaking wrong and the one committing the crime should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However all this garbage like eye rape and these false claims make it more difficult for real victims to get help and be taken seriously.

Absolutely.

All the muck is clouding the water, and these issues deserve far more respect than the flippant use of making anything and everything into "____ Rape".

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
These woman saying this bull shyte don't have a clue. They want to be victims because it fits their agenda. Modern feminism is not about equality it's about domination.

What do I know though.

Clearly, you know vastly more than most do.

a reply to: redmage

I don't share my story often. The people who need to know know. it just gives me a certain perspective on feminism. I understand that I experienced that for a reason. I learned a lesson about myself and what I can overcome and about the world in general. One thing I have noticed is that on the whole men have been far more sympathetic to me in what I went through than women (not saying all women are this way by any means). Maybe that is just my experience.

My youngest is a girl.My husband vows she will be able to both work on her own car and fight. My boys have made a vow that they will always protect their sister. I think I am teaching them right. They hold the door open for women, men and women in uniform, and the elderly. Please and thank you and yes ma'am/sir no ma'am/sir. They practice common courtesy and manners in general. Gentle souls that will kick the snot out of someone who hurts them, their family, or friends.

No, NO ONE should have to take self defense to feel safe from any kind of crime. Sadly the world we live in dictates otherwise. Humans are a vile species. We can also be one of great kindness and good. We freely choose how we will act. Its power and greed that motivates us. Kindness and good sometimes requires sacrifice and we don't want to sacrifice. I.E. rape is about power not sex.

I will say this getting on tumblr has been a very eye opening experience. I have seen this side of what was once a great aide to women in this country. I don't claim to know a lot about this. I read tumblr despite feeling very angry while I do because I need to understand why they think this way.

For another fun (insert eye roll here) victim mentality look up CISphobia. You will either want to cry, scream, or both.

originally posted by: Painterz
I see a bunch of guys saying there is no such thing as rape culture.

And every single woman I know says there is.


The gulf between these two views tells me everything I need to know about how a bunch of guys really don't have the right to tell many many women that they are wrong about how they experience the world.

Well then my friend, you need to expand the types of women you know. . . . . a bit of diversity maybe? Apologists like yourself are ALWAYS railing on about diversity, but you only seem to know women with a very narrow and agenda driven mindset.

I know many women who scoff at this third wave of "feminism" - my girlfriend included and their claim that the US is "rape culture". Do they all define unwanted flirting as rape too? Or what about being called "slut", is that rape too (and I in no way support the calling of women that under normal circumstances)? I could go on, but something tells me nothing I say will convince you. I could throw facts and solid statistics at you that disprove or at least explain things such as the wage gap, the supposed 1/5 women raped in college statistic, etc, and you would just accuse me of misogyny or bigotry, so I won't waste my breath.

originally posted by: Painterz
I see a bunch of guys saying there is no such thing as rape culture.

And every single woman I know says there is.


The gulf between these two views tells me everything I need to know about how a bunch of guys really don't have the right to tell many many women that they are wrong about how they experience the world.

Examples please.

It's clear we won't agree on what I see as the obvious -- that every human being is responsible for themselves, and one person being responsible for committing a crime (e.g. mugging a guy for his Rolex) does not mean the other person is not separately and in parallel responsible for adult levels of self-preservation (not walking through bad neighborhoods with a visible Rolex).

I get there is the thought that if "what a woman is wearing when raped" is every considered that it's blaming-the-victim and lesser-blame-to-the-criminal.

I did mention this is never a consideration about crime. Only about whether there was a crime committed at all which is totally different. But I get that's going to get sort of ignored and dismissed too. OK...

So perhaps it should be phrased differently. Every human (any gender) is responsible for acting in favor of their own well-being (in every possible way) to include their behavior, their choices about social location and people surrounding them, in every situation, period.

Some of those situations will include muggings and rapes as those are events in society. It will also include dances and business meetings and social networking.

Criminals are responsible for their criminal behavior. But every-human is responsible for acting in favor of their own well-being STILL AND ALWAYS, and that adult responsibility doesn't go away -- not for any human of any gender, not for any event good or bad.

The issue of self-responsibility for not putting oneself in harm's way is the same across the board, for genders and issues -- it doesn't have to be about rape. If someone wants to hang out at underground clubs filled with drug use and violent people, directly or indirectly this is likely to affect them eventually. Statistically something related to 'drug use and violence' is bound to happen, even if most the people were altruistic angels -- a few in any population won't be. That issue isn't about clothing, it is about whether hanging out with violent people on drugs at 3am in an underground warehouse dancing is really the safest thing to be doing.

If you get beat up, is the attacker still guilty? Yes. If you get beat up, are you still responsible for having put yourself in harm's way by choosing to hang out in that environment? Yes. As amazing as it seems, two human beings are each responsible for their own actions. If they interact, it's not just one or the other.

The gender-feminism group just doesn't want to grow up. They don't want to be responsible even for themselves. Nobody ever said rape was ok, or that a person raped took on some % of the blame for rape as a crime -- what people say is that if you care about a person, advise them not to do things that increase the risk of encountering rapists or of rapists having opportunity with them.

This is not because it would be any less of a crime on the criminal's part if they did. It's because if we care about someone we don't want them to be harmed, so we teach them to look out for themselves. Don't flip off people in other cars (especially if they're law enforcement, heh), don't go to parties with lots of people drunk or crazy or known to be violent (unless you are 6'4, well muscled and your nickname is 'Snake', this may present a degree of danger), don't use chairs as ladders (especially if you're very heavy or uncoordinated), don't run with scissors (ever), don't walk down dark streets at night (and particularly not if you're a woman or either gender dressed well), you get the idea.

"Good advice toward looking out for oneself" does not constitute "supporting violent crime from others."

RC

a reply to: RedCairo

"Good advice toward looking out for oneself" does not constitute "supporting violent crime from others."

A succinct and accurate sentence. Star for you

What is "rape" anyway?

Killing some noob in an online game that may or may not be female? Rape

www.ign.com...

With consent at the time of intercourse? Rape

maybemaimed.com...

Once they figure out what it actually means, anything can count as Rape.

Just looking at a woman on the transit can lead you to a conviction.

Watch out white CIS males

a reply to: rockintitz
Yes there is a rape culture and it is not isolated in one country or to one place.

It is present and it is growing. One major cause is our ignorance.

We can take a huge step to correcting this problem if we start by believing.

There is no shame when your loved one dies. When your car is stolen. When you’re diagnosed with cancer. Friends and loved ones gather around you for support. They don’t blame you for "bringing it on yourself."

It should be the same with sexual violence. But all too often, survivors who have the courage to tell someone what happened are blamed for bringing it on themselves.This needs to change.

Start by Believing is a public awareness campaign designed by End Violence Against Women International (EVAWI) to change the way we respond to rape and sexual assault in our communities.

When someone comes to you what will your reaction be?

a reply to: rockintitz

The reason I cannot be convinced that rape culture is a myth is because it can be seen with our own eyes.

When was the last time you heard of a man in a business suit get robbed on the street and then blamed for it because his suit was just asking for it?

Or... what about when a wealthy person flaunts a personal jet? If they are taxed more because of it, I don't ever hear of conservatives saying the rich person was just begging for it. Flying around in that slutty jet and everything.

Rape culture is based on assumptions we make about where responsibility lies. I've heard men complain about how they were owed sex after buying a woman dinner. Nobody even flinches at those remarks because we have all heard it. That's rape culture.

a reply to: Abysha

When was the last time you heard of a man in a business suit get robbed on the street and then blamed for it because his suit was just asking for it?

Not rape.

Or... what about when a wealthy person flaunts a personal jet? If they are taxed more because of it, I don't ever hear of conservatives saying the rich person was just begging for it. Flying around in that slutty jet and everything. 

Also not rape.

Rape culture is based on assumptions we make about where responsibility lies. I've heard men complain about how they were owed sex after buying a woman dinner. Nobody even flinches at those remarks because we have all heard it. That's rape culture.

Funny how none of your instances that argue there is a rape culture include actual rape.

I think we all agree that forced intercourse or any SEXUAL moves following a verbal denial is straight wrong.

Expecting to be serviced after a date is what Jerks think, its not a universal expectation of a Rape Culture. Acting on it and taking what you think is owed to you after paying $100 for dinner IS however rape.

This type of mindset is dying away without the help of triggered crones

I'm a woman and I don't think of the US as a rape culture.

I don't know any women in person who do. And most the women I know have had some degree of sexual abuse -- usually when young but it varies -- including rape. But that there is a small % of criminals in the culture who prey on the vulnerable is known. That isn't all men. And the culture isn't encouraging it, aside from the keeping-it-secret-in-shame part which I think is harmful.

Then again most the women I know are very competent women who work jobs, raise families, take care of a lot of family, work and community responsibilities, and would probably shoot a home intruder dead without a qualm. They would not expect to later make the excuse: "But it was my home. They had no right! I should able to live in my home safely!" Yes they should. Of course they should. And they still lock the doors, close the windows, and if necessary shoot intruders. Not because intruders are made "less guilty" by making the woman also-responsible for herself. But because she wants to protect herself and her kids just in case.

My kid I'd never talked with about any of this with scoffed at the word "feminism." She was about 17. I don't think this has the great reputation that media and social media think. That whole loop is like a huge female circle jerk of people are so emotionally irrational they can't even see how they're all just feeding off each other's drama.

By the way there is gender feminism, which is the "make laws to treat us specially (and by the way men suck)" branch, and there is equality feminism, which is "remove any old laws creating/upholding inequality. Mostly that is all" branch.

This may seem hard to believe given the reputation the word 'feminism' has garnered for itself, but many equality feminists are intelligent women who are also responsible, critical thinking, and able to hold rational conversations (without having such emotion stuck in the middle it's like some massive psyche distortion field, which I see in media and social media).

Nearly every 'famous rape case' on college campuses turns out to be drastically different than the media ever reported or would even now. Nearly every man who speaks up publicly about this issue of rape is intentionally misquoted, quoted out of context, harassed even to the point of incredible criminal behavior -- like out of this world -- open death threats and the most horrific threats and insults in public places, this for people who merely had an opinion that sounded a lot like "Look, women should learn to look out for themselves because some people are criminals alas." The situation is really pretty ridiculous.

I was recently trying to teach my kid something about media and I insisted whatever topic/person she thought was 'bad' that she tell me "what was bad about them/it" and then I would see, after doing a little simple internet research, if she had actually looked into the reality of things, and not just some social media soundbite, or what someone else said they said interpreted out of context into what that person was sure they meant, etc. I told her I wanted to know that if she was making decisions about things, now that she's an adult (almost) she was using reason for this and not just following nonsense.

She chose someone who coincidentally talks on this topic (and others) and the whole thing blew up. Her friends were hysterical, literally. I would say, "Point me to where person X says that." They can't. I point out what it's clearly mis-stating. "But that's not what he meant." Actually it's what he said, are you psychic and know better what's in his brain? But you can tell what he meant anyway, by (a) he was perfectly clear about what he meant, (b) in response to critique he addressed what he actually meant yet again, and (c) reaching into other separate topics or comments or articles, anybody with a brain would see that a given thing is obviously satire, or presented solely to make a point, and so on. But she was surrounded by friends who literally would start *yelling* -- as if this guy was standing there hurting them personally -- with huge emotion, rambling about all these things that were totally not so but some facebook post apparently said they were. I felt like I had suddenly come face to face with a group of six year olds dressed like 18-20 year olds. It was surreal and horrible since my own kid was one of them although she was mostly just going with the influence.

"Did you READ this?" I ask.
"I don't need to read it."
"Do you disagree that person X knows their own mind?"
"He means what I know he really means."
"Holy crap, you know him that personally?"
"Of course not."
"Is it ok with you that all these examples openly lied about what was said, or did it totally out of context on purpose AS a lie?"
"Well it's what he really meant."
"Don't you think if you're going to insult someone for saying something, it ought to be for what they really clearly said and meant, given a) their actual words and b) the context of their presentation?"

various answers amounted to: but no matter what is real, in my emotional interpretation I share with other hysterical women, he is BAD, ALL BAD, so all intelligence, discretion, integrity, reason, are no longer required on my part.

A lot like how if a rapist is guilty of rape, somehow personal responsibility for not doing dangerous things is no longer required for anyone else.

Weirdly, it is exactly like politics. To see this applied to social issues is really a bummer.

I sometimes wonder if this is just another 5th column way of destabilizing the country's larger culture (given the socialist politic that tends to come with it) because isn't it enough how people are polarized against each other for 87 reasons already, race and religion and nationality and politics and more, but this just adds yet more polarizing based on gender?

RC

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
My youngest is a girl.

YEEEEEES! There's at least one more girl that will grow up empowered instead of being told she's a victim all her life!

The family sounds amazing, and I wish you and yours all the best that life has to offer.

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
I will say this getting on tumblr has been a very eye opening experience. I have seen this side of what was once a great aide to women in this country. I don't claim to know a lot about this. I read tumblr despite feeling very angry while I do because I need to understand why they think this way.

Personally, I think the absurd traction Sarkeesian has garnered in the modern "Feminist" movement is quite disturbing. Her famous mantra has much more to do with perpetuating a Victim Culture than actual feminism.



Any college educated individual should know that speaking in such absolutes is absurd, yet this is the message being championed by modern "feminists" and through the MSM support she receives.

originally posted by: YachiruKusajishi
For another fun (insert eye roll here) victim mentality look up CISphobia. You will either want to cry, scream, or both.

Why...why did I look?

The answer is both, definitely both.

a reply to: redmage

LoL you like me are a masochist! I looked it up because I saw it on ifunny and thought no this can't be true. Surely people are smarter than this right? Nope For the record I don't hate or fear anyone because of who they love, what they feel like they are etc but come one.. Really?

I had never heard of this woman. There is so much garbage out there that I can only subject myself to limited amounts.

My daughter is already my little butt kicker. Ask my son when he ticks her off. She punched him square in the face for teasing her. It had a nice little smack sound to it too! He laughed and wasn't hurt but he doesn't pick on her like that anymore.

@redcairo I agree with most of what you say. Especially the media blowing things up or misquoting.

Did anyone read the thread where college students were saying something along the lines of a male accused of rape should be kicked from college without a trial? This concerns me with a son who is only 7 years off of college age. Will some girl feel slighted by him for some reason and accuse him just to get him kicked out? Not only is it dangerous to my childs future but its also messing with both of us financially! Aren't we still a land where you are innocent until proven guilty or are we guilty until proven innocent? I am truly truly scared for my kids futures at this rate!

Sure some people think if they do a favor for you (that costs them $120 and time) that hopefully you will feel obligated to be nice to them, the definition of which varies. This is not just about dating men. The people that went to my sister's door with a religious tract and eventually "bought her a copy with their own money" and so on were doing the same psychological thing. I've heard that's why some cultures don't give gifts except to the closest family -- because they feel it is rude to make someone feel obligated. This is a human behavior, not limited to gender and not limited to dating.

It's also not rape.

Were it actual rape, it would be rape, and it would never be ok.

This would be a wonderful time to insert appropriate advice for daughters the age of mine such as:

* Don't get in the car with any human being you don't know well, even for a romantic or friend-date. Meet them at the restaurant in your own car or have a ride or taxi waiting. It's unwise to put yourself into any situation where you are isolated with a person you don't know well. Especially at night. Especially in an enclosed space.

* As a human decency consideration, others can be nervous and hopeful too, so if you haven't got the slightest interest in the person in the way they seem to have for you, maybe either tell them that, or at least arrange something informal and inexpensive for "hanging out" and probably you should go dutch (both pay for themselves) if they will let you.

I offer this advice to daughters the age of mine not because criminals aren't criminals if they do either of these things, but because I want them to be safe, to be careful, and to be decent people.

RC

a reply to: rockintitz

Oh my word. Are really trying to discount rape culture by insisting that nothing short of penis-in-vagina-violence is a part of rape culture? Seriously?

For you to not understand the allegory surrounding it, I am pretty sure you are being intentionally obtuse about this. I know you can see what it is.

Maybe you are confused about what "rape culture" actually is. You seem to be approaching it as a "culture full of rape" when the concept is actually about "rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: rockintitz
"rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

I want to understand.

Give me examples of it being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture.

There are several subcultures that do(Certain rap genres and Jersey Shore), I can see that; but overall American culture? No i don't believe it.

I think the real driving force behind rape culture is, paradoxically, the prudish and puritanical nature of the US Christian culture. Bible-belt thinking is widespread throughout the country, such that some of its ideals even persist into more liberal urban centers. Thus, when a culture clash occurs between free-thinking, liberal women who believe in owning their own sexuality, and puritanical Bible-thumpers, the women wind up labeled loose, slutty, asking for it. In every scenario whereupon a woman has decided to forego old-fashioned Christian sexual taboos (e.g. Kim Kardashian's nude selfies, a club girl going out in a microskirt, a mother breastfeeding in public, etc), these women are nearly always met with backlash from a public that is quick to shame them for daring to wish to display their bodies, or express themselves how they choose.

A rape of any of these women need not occur for the rape culture to rear its ugly head: the rape culture is, by definition, the act of blaming the women for their choices when a rape does occur, and for even suggesting in the first place that if it does occur it's her fault. One could make the argument that shaming women for their body choices at all is encompassed in rape culture, as an extension.

The rape culture deniers do not understand this, seemingly.

Rape is bad. Men and women are equal. No one is openly advocating rape. Blah blah blah. I think we can all agree on this.

The problem is that, based on personal observation, probably 80% of females are molested as children, raped or otherwise abused at some point in their lives. I would say at least 10% of males too. With the overwhelming majority of the perpetrators being men. Most victims are too humiliated/ashamed/fearful to report it. And of the ones who do report it, only 3% of the men responsible actually see the inside of a jail cell. (I've had other members argue this stat on other threads, trust me, it's pretty accurate). So, they're free to do it serially.

All men aren't rapists. And our culture doesn't openly support rape. But there are plenty of cases where schools and churches sweep complaints under the rug in favor of their own personal interests. There are plenty of cases where prosecution is simply not even attempted to be pursued- he said/she said. There are plenty of cases where the female is blamed for where she was, what she was doing, what she was wearing.

I think any attempt to lower these sad numbers is great. Anything to raise awareness. Especially among teenage/college age boys, they are particularly susceptible to peer pressure.

When I was in high school, I was in a vehicle with about 3 male 'friends' and one of them 'jokingly' said "Let's rape her." I responded, "I will f*cking kill all 3 of you dead." I truly believe that if I had shown an ounce more weakness the 'joke' would have become a reality.

Another time I was hanging out with a couple of guy friends after school and one had been drinking. He suddenly decided he wanted me to suck his d*ck and proceeded to try to force me. I tried to push him off and ended up getting hit in the face with a golf club before leaving. None of this was reported to police, but when kids at school asked why my nose was bruised I told them. And no one gave a flying f*ck.

MAYBE this rape culture movement could put it into the heads of these guys' peers to pressure THEM not to do stuff like this. Maybe. Hopefully.

originally posted by: Butterfinger

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: rockintitz
"rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

I want to understand.

Give me examples of it being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture.

There are several subcultures that do(Certain rap genres and Jersey Shore), I can see that; but overall American culture? No i don't believe it.

Butterfinger, meet AshOnMyTomatoes, a person who seems to have a solid grasp on rape culture. The below post is absolutely spot-on.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
I think the real driving force behind rape culture is, paradoxically, the prudish and puritanical nature of the US Christian culture. Bible-belt thinking is widespread throughout the country, such that some of its ideals even persist into more liberal urban centers. Thus, when a culture clash occurs between free-thinking, liberal women who believe in owning their own sexuality, and puritanical Bible-thumpers, the women wind up labeled loose, slutty, asking for it. In every scenario whereupon a woman has decided to forego old-fashioned Christian sexual taboos (e.g. Kim Kardashian's nude selfies, a club girl going out in a microskirt, a mother breastfeeding in public, etc), these women are nearly always met with backlash from a public that is quick to shame them for daring to wish to display their bodies, or express themselves how they choose.

A rape of any of these women need not occur for the rape culture to rear its ugly head: the rape culture is, by definition, the act of blaming the women for their choices when a rape does occur, and for even suggesting in the first place that if it does occur it's her fault. One could make the argument that shaming women for their body choices at all is encompassed in rape culture, as an extension.

The rape culture deniers do not understand this, seemingly.