Rape Culture

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie

MAYBE this rape culture movement could put it into the heads of these guys' peers to pressure THEM not to do stuff like this. Maybe. Hopefully.

This brings up another fantastic point: if YOU (the rape culture deniers in the crowd) do not ever take part in a rape, and the raising of the awareness of rape culture is helping prevent rape amongst the young and stupid, why do you care when people discuss it at all? Shouldn't you just say "welp, that's not about me!" and move on?

a reply to: Painterz

If there isn't a "rape culture", then you don't need to vote for the politician that will fix the "rape culture"

Only a meany would speak out against "rape culture"

a reply to: Abysha


regarding your post: "When was the last time you heard of a man in a business suit get robbed on the street and then blamed for it because his suit was just asking for it?"

All the time. If you go to the wrong neighborhood at night and get robbed, you will hear, what did you expect.
you flash a lot of cash, and you get jumped, what did you expect

Common sense taught some of us, if you do action X, then the odds of something bad happening to you increases. The only problem in today's society, people think that their actions should only have the outcome that they want. If they don't get that outcome, it's someone else's fault

originally posted by: thinline
Common sense taught some of us, if you do action X, then the odds of something bad happening to you increases. The only problem in today's society, people think that their actions should only have the outcome that they want. If they don't get that outcome, it's someone else's fault

So if a man gets mugged, its his own fault? That's rape culture talkin'. You put the blame where it belongs, and it never belongs on the victim. The point of rape culture awareness is that we should be aspiring to be better as a whole. It doesn't matter whether YOU wouldn't personally commit a mugging or a rape yourself: we need to blame and shame the perpetrators ALWAYS, and the victims NEVER.

a reply to: Abysha

Maybe you are confused about what "rape culture" actually is. You seem to be approaching it as a "culture full of rape" when the concept is actually about "rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

No, I'm not. The culture I live in does not promote rape. I beg of you to give me one example otherwise.

the crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will:

That is the first definition of rape on google.

So have at it. Tell me in just one way my culture advocates actual rape.

Hardline feminists dont like to deal with rational arguments, they see victimization everywhere because it's a way for them to exist and scream their own hate regarding men.

a reply to: dollukka

Maybe you heard about the prostitot phenomena?



It's like this video.

1.) Look at the age.

2.) Look at the moves.

3.) Look at the outfits, hair and makeup.

4.) Listen to the lyrics.

Add it all up together. I realize that this is a dance competition, but it still skirts the bounds of taste in the extreme. I wouldn't be paying for my daughter to go to this studio.

This is a cultural thing too, not just an isolated incident. Take some time to check out the clothing, shoe and undergarment displays for young girls. They get more and more adult all the time. It's one thing for adults to show cleavage, wear heels and g-strings, but why are we encouraging our young teens (13-14) and tweens or younger to start in on it?

Wanna talk about what might fuel over-sexualizing society, this might be one place to start looking and self-examining. Thank God at this point I am not having to raise a daughter and worrying about explaining to her why these things aren't appropriate at 10!

a reply to: rockintitz

Umm....the rapists get away with their crimes scott free ALL the friggin time.

If the victim happens to be at a party or at a bar then she was asking for it.

There was a thread a while back where in Britain a young girl (17/18) and her older friend were at a club and went home with an older rich Saudi guy. The Saudi guy banged the older friend and the young girl fell asleep on the couch. When she woke up the next morning he was on top of her sticking his wiener inside her. There was even semen collected to prove that penetration happened. She went to the cops, his defense was that (I'm not even kidding) he 'tripped an fell' onto her and that maybe he had leftover semen on his hands.

He was found not guilty (not enough evidence). And there were many, many members on HERE defending this guy saying that the girl had been partying and had come back to his place, so what did she expect?

So you personally aren't a rapist. Great, good for you. But there are guys that are and they get away with it every day. Maybe if there was more open disgust against these guys, maybe if law enforcement and courts could do a better job of prosecuting them there would be slightly fewer rapes.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

There is a certain point as a woman where you have to take SOME responsibility for yourself and your actions.

Didn't her mother ever teach her NOT to go home with strangers? Didn't her mother ever teach that it's not a good idea to drink around strangers?

a reply to: rockintitz

A few months ago, while away on business, I was in my rental listening to NPR.

They were discussing a controversial study on rape in college campuses.

One study asked X amount of women if they had ever been raped.

Another study asked women if they had been approached by men in various situations. The people conducting the study then determined if it was rape.

There was a ten-fold increase when the data was interpreted by people instead of simply asking.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: rockintitz

A few months ago, while away on business, I was in my rental listening to NPR.

They were discussing a controversial study on rape in college campuses.

One study asked X amount of women if they had ever been raped.

Another study asked women if they had been approached by men in various situations. The people conducting the study then determined if it was rape.

There was a ten-fold increase when the data was interpreted by people instead of simply asking.

Was it the one that led to the 1 in 5 women are raped at college stat?

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes, I believe it was.

I wish I could source the show but it stuck with me.

The people conducting the study considered it rape if the woman and man had more than X amount to drink and went to bed intoxicated.

a reply to: DBCowboy

She talks about it in this Prager U video. You can see if it is the one you are thinking of.

Well I agree actually with Ashonmytomatoes that the high maJority of woman experience some kind of sexual abuse, molestation, up to and including rape, in their life, and a smaller % of men, and that most the perpetrators by far are men.

I also think the surreally dysfunctional "hiding" of this is allowing it and damaging. This is an important point you see because it wouldn't get the "hush hiding" response that is so common and damaging, if we HAD a 'rape culture' -- it would be open. It's greatly due to our culture's severe reaction to even sexual impropriety let alone rape that it becomes such a wide-eyed OMG keep it under wraps situation. In fact this whole focus here on women's experience growing up and the culture basically suppressing it (and hence protecting it) itself kinda disproves the whole rape culture concept.

You tell someone when you're 13 that a man who's your uncle is fingering you, like 30 people gather to insist you're a slut, a liar, etc. and he would never do this and the last umpteen girls to women accusing him (that you knew nothing about as you just flew in from across the country for a summer) were all just like you -- ask me how I know. But the reason people react like that is because the reaction to this whole topic is so severe -- it doesn't result in the aunt, uncle, you, and your adults having to go to counseling or having a private review, it results in absolute hysteria in the family, in the city, with the legal system, put that man in prison and now his wife and kids have no support, prison ranges from horrific to literally deadly, and so OF COURSE the family defends him, because if the complainant is wrong then nothing happens except STFU kid this is embarrassing, but if the complainant is right it's a whole cascade of social, financial chaos and more.

If the behavior we're talking about is THAT endemic then this is an issue that needs to be addressed at the quiet level where people are willing to do something about it, and are not so afraid of the truth that a family of women will defend a man they know is guilty. When response at every level from social to legal is knee-jerk extreme, nobody will ever be willing to face it honestly. If they were, a whole family could be, "Everyone knows Uncle X is a handler, don't ever leave young people alone with him" and literally people could call him out "X! Don't even start!" if he were even suspected across the room or pool -- like the whole of everyone would know his tendencies and not be willing to let that BS fly at all. But instead if him being a feeler-upper results in "he and his family will be utterly destroyed and mortified" the family will defend him, the victims will be the ones blamed for even bringing the topic up, and no form of counseling or cultural-recognition is ever gonna happen.

But there is a huge spectrum of abuse and molestation that are not rape. (Doesn't make it ok, just makes it not rape.) Most of what we're talking about is not rape. And that is always a crime that deserves criminal treatment.

A culture that is almost typically neurotic about sex (ours is hardly alone in that) is just that -- neurotic -- but a 'rape culture' literally is a term that has historically been used for cultures that promote rape.

They may actually do it publicly as common social or marital 'discipline' or barter. They may use it for legal punishments. They may do it commonly to children even of others' as if kids are dogs like the women and have no rights. The middle east is a pretty good example of a total nightmare for women and kids on several levels (except Turkey, although fundies have been gradually trying to wrest away the modern civilization Ataturk won for them as well).

if YOU (the rape culture deniers in the crowd)

Omg now we can put this on the list with 'climate change deniers' -- is that just the new blanket-term way of dealing with any group of people who ever says a given thing doesn't exist?

and the raising of the awareness of rape culture is helping prevent rape amongst the young and stupid

Is it? Where? Do you see the particular approach taken by modern gender feminism to this topic actually improving the situation in some fashion?

Does telling women it doesn't matter what they wear, how they behave, what they do, because they should have the 'right' to get plastered drunk in a miniskirt in the middle of a frat party, helping those young women REALLY?

Is insisting that all men are inherently rapists and "need to be taught not to rape" -- as if criminal behavior is now just assigned at birth to all males -- is that making men more sympathetic to women's plight?

Is redefining the entire definition of rape so literally a woman can *agree to sex* and then *days or even months later* claim she was raped, when the "penalty" for rape is imprisonment, slavery, often injury and even murder, family and social and professional ruination and more, when the penalty for misreporting or openly lying about rape is nothing at all -- all I see is this making men so threatened -- fairly! -- that now they're operating in self-defense and at the college level especially have begun to consider women frighteningly dangerous enemies.

What part of this approach to feminism's new branding of 'rape culture' is doing anything except make men and women hate and fear each other, blurring the lines entirely of who is criminal and what is criminal, and polarizing the subject into something that no amount of calm discussion can then get any headway on at all?

why do you care when people discuss it at all? Shouldn't you just say "welp, that's not about me!" and move on?

I'm a woman but I consider it my duty to anyone in my country to defend injust, irrational, dangerous social movements that allow the pathology and politics of a few to cause so much damage to so many and make a troublesome situation that already needed improvement into a nightmare. I would do this for people who were say, black, or gay, or Hindu, though I am none of those, just as much as I do it for men, because they are part of my people and country and they should not be left defending themselves in the corner, every decent person should be willing to stand up and say "All men are not criminals, all men are not rapists, only RAPE is rape, and all efforts to subvert those three points is hurting women, men, and the larger social fabric they live in."

RC

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
if YOU (the rape culture deniers in the crowd) do not ever take part in a rape

Yes.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
and the raising of the awareness of rape culture is helping prevent rape amongst the young and stupid

Back the train up. There is no evidence that raising awareness of the false hypothesis, known as "rape culture in the U.S.", is helping to prevent anything here.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
why do you care when people discuss it at all?

I don't mind people discussing a hypothesis, be it true or false.

What I do mind is people fear mongering, and touting a weak hypothesis as some sort of undeniable fact.

As Abysha so eloquently stated...

Maybe you are confused about what "rape culture" actually is. You seem to be approaching it as a "culture full of rape" when the concept is actually about "rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

I don't see supporting proof that rape is "implicitly and explicitly promoted" by U.S. culture. If fact, I see quite the opposite. Rape is rightfully viewed as a despicable crime here, so much so that even allegations (not convictions) are enough to ignite public outrage, and ruin lives.

There are places (many in the Middle East), where rape culture actually does exist, and to try to somehow equate U.S. culture with such places diminishes the struggles that women there honestly face. It's horrible enough that rape occurs at all, but to try and falsely elevate what we deal with in the U.S. to the levels of what's occurring overseas is dishonest fear mongering used to promote a Victim Culture.

As I said earlier, I see much more evidence of a "Victim Culture" in the U.S. which I believe has played a large role in making hyperbole the norm here.

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
So if a man gets mugged, its his own fault? That's rape culture talkin'.

No, it's not. A man getting mugged has no relevance or bearing on the notion of "rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture".

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

There is a certain point as a woman where you have to take SOME responsibility for yourself and your actions.

Didn't her mother ever teach her NOT to go home with strangers? Didn't her mother ever teach that it's not a good idea to drink around strangers?

So in my personal experience:
I was in a vehicle with 3 guy friends. One jokes 'let's rape her'. Let's say they went through with it and I was gang banged by 3 guys. It would be MY fault for being in a vehicle with them?

Wow. Good thing rape culture isn't a real thing.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
So in my personal experience:
I was in a vehicle with 3 guy friends. One jokes 'let's rape her'. Let's say they went through with it and I was gang banged by 3 guys. It would be MY fault for being in a vehicle with them?

Wow. Good thing rape culture isn't a real thing.

Oh, make no mistake. Rape Culture is a VERY real thing, and THIS is what the reality of "Rape Culture" and "blaming the victim" really looks like.

America's Victim Culture hyperbole (of there being a "U.S. rape culture") doesn't hold a candle to the reality of the situation where such culture actually exists.

I can't believe that any American could look that woman in the eyes, and honestly claim that it's us American's who live in a "Rape Culture".

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

There are also men who are falsely convicted of rape all the time.

The justice system doesn't always work. For any crime.

What is your point?

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

There is a certain point as a woman where you have to take SOME responsibility for yourself and your actions.

Didn't her mother ever teach her NOT to go home with strangers? Didn't her mother ever teach that it's not a good idea to drink around strangers?

So in my personal experience:
I was in a vehicle with 3 guy friends. One jokes 'let's rape her'. Let's say they went through with it and I was gang banged by 3 guys. It would be MY fault for being in a vehicle with them?

Wow. Good thing rape culture isn't a real thing.

No, but there are certain schools for feminism who would say that even just joking about it would constitute it. So even if your friends didn't go through with it, those crying about rape culture would say the joke was enough to victimize you.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
So in my personal experience:
I was in a vehicle with 3 guy friends. One jokes 'let's rape her'. Let's say they went through with it and I was gang banged by 3 guys. It would be MY fault for being in a vehicle with them?
Wow. Good thing rape culture isn't a real thing.

But did anybody say that?

1. Even if they were total strangers, in the dark, in a foreign city, and you were dressed like a french maid, and you crawled into the car with them, if they raped you they would still be rapists. Nobody, nobody ever, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON EVER has disputed this on this thread.

Lots of people would probably say that having done the above, it was highly prone to be dangerous to you, and not recommended as a result. However it would not make criminals any less criminals.

2. There are always going to be situations you cannot predict, people you cannot predict, and circumstance you cannot predict or avoid -- these elements are part of the random stuff-happens in human life. I'm sure you thought those men were trustworthy. Clearly if you came that close, they were definitely not. Nobody would say "It's your fault for thinking you knew them." I've thought I've known a lot of people who turned out to be backstabbing cretins, of both genders, and I've learned a little about signs and symptoms as I've gotten older to help me recognize more "character issues" in people I know and don't know, but sometimes it's the danger of life -- you just don't know. You made the best decisions you could -- and you proactively behaved in a way to protect yourself. It was a bad situation with unpredictable elements that's all. Nobody would blame a rape victim for the rape anyway, but in this case nobody would even suggest the rape victim was behaving dangerously either because you weren't.

3. Rape culture would be if they had raped you and your dad, the police, the people walking by the car in the grocery store parking lot where you were screaming in the backseat, ignored all this, shrugged it off, etc. In a genuine 'rape culture' that's the result. In a culture like ours, if the circumstance has decent evidence and testimony the rape is prosecuted as a felony crime and there is gigantic fallout for the person accused even well before or without trial or conviction.

And it's a shame that decent evidence is sometimes hard to come by, but we live in a country where the Constitution says people are innocent until proven guilty. It sucks for letting murderers go free just as it does rapists. I would rather live in this country with that rule, than in any country that would mandate to enslave/injure/kill any person without being utterly sure "beyond a reasonable doubt" they were really a criminal first.

More people would assume other men are guilty of rape when accused, if the "rape culture" mentality had not gradually re-written rape into being everything including arbitrary-outright-lying-retroactively. At this point, many men and many women hear someone say "I was raped" -- let alone on a college campus -- and they think, "I'll wait and see what the actual evidence is, because so much of this has turned out to be something else."

The hyperbolic feminists have "cried wolf" not just too many times, but pretty much on automated speed dial at 130 decibels for some time now so to speak, and I'm to the point where I don't believe anything. That didn't help genuine victims. All they did was make more victims by telling them their own behavior didn't matter, and make a world of unsympathetic people by giving good reason for people to doubt anything claimed by anybody. They are, like most entitlement-slash-victim-mentality sorts, literally more harm than help to the very people they profess to be saving.

RC