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American College of Pediatricians Says Teaching Children Transgenderism Is Child Abuse

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posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 11:15 AM
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I'm convinced that the rise in transgenderism is caused by endocrine-disrupting chemicals in our food and water. I actually made a thread about it a few months back if anybody is interested in this theory.




posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 02:14 PM
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i'm a female, and have always been attracted to males. i was also always a tomboy, and preferred to have male friends over females because for some reason, trusting females came to be much more difficult. when i started going through puberty around 10 - 12 years old, things got increasingly tough for me to handle. breasts, periods, all the burden of possible childbearing one day. i was teased a lot, especially since i was athletic and preferred to wear baseball hats and shorts instead of makeup and dresses. i had a few crushes on my friends who were boys, but they didn't notice me as much because i was seen as "one of the guys."

sometimes i felt like it would just be much easier to be a boy. some nights before bed i'd close my eyes and wish over and over again that i could wake up as a male. of course that didn't happen. also, i didn't talk about this to anyone because i felt like i would be made fun of, or that i would be thought of as weird. in fact, i think this is the first time i've ever said anything about this, and i'm 32 years old.

that being said, the desire to wake up as a boy changed around the time i was 14 and i started having boyfriends. apparently middle school guys don't really care if you dress like a tomboy or not, haha.

anyhow, i think it's important to be open with children and to have an open dialogue with them about having these sorts of feelings... because in my case it went away, and i became much more comfortable with my physical identity as i grew into it and matured. they should not feel ashamed or fearful to talk to their parents or peers about these sort of feelings. instead of teaching transgenderism, we need to be teaching our children respect and openmindedness, and to understand that our emotions as human beings and changes we go through are very complex, but should never ever be seen as shameful or abnormal or "wrong."

and as for the 4 year old example...? yeah, naah. no surgery. if you asked me what i wanted to be at 4, i'd say a wolf, and would have happily received a surgical treatment for a tail, ears, and pointier canines.


edit on 23-3-2016 by wanderlustqueen because: spelling



posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: Freija

Thank you for being level headed in this discussion.


Thank you for the same as well and for pushing me to do a bit of digging to find some better answers than I can come up with off from the top of my head and to avoid speaking from the heart. Let me consult with a couple of experts in this field I am in contact with and see what they come up with in response. I'm pretty good with this stuff, at least enough to know when my knowledge or references are running thin.

Regarding your links... the first one confirmed what I already said - the risks vs. benefits need to be carefully evaluated between the child, parents and doctors. The second one, I already linked above. The third one, however, I am going to totally discard because it is on a well known anti-trans TERF site. (FYI, TERF stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist). From my reading, there's a lot of politics involved between facets of the transgender community and the TERFs. Trans activist/author/researcher, Cristan Williams' website, The Transadvocate, seems to be one of the generals leading the TERF war? For what it's worth, I don't have much to say about adult transgender issues which seem to be only peripherally related to those of trans kids.

There was a former member here, now a very attractive and smart as hell 21 year old studying high level science at university that transitioned at 12 and was on the blocker protocol then HRT and had SRS at 17. She has flatly stated male puberty would have directly driven her to suicide. It is pretty hard to discount the benefits of blockers when you hear personal testimony how they have helped make this young woman's life livable.

Thanks again for your opinion and thoughtful responses even though we don't see eye-to-eye. Let me see if my sources can provide some better evidence or research and I'll get back to you on this.



posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 02:39 PM
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a reply to: Freija

Again I appreciate your response style it's a very difficult topic and you are able to keep calm and discuss intelligently.

Yeah I am on my cell and to be honest should have waited until I got home to access tan actual database.I can guarantee you though you won't give me any info I haven't read. I had to battle with USA wrestling over a student I had and spent a long time getting information from Dr's to allow him to compete.

The blockers MAY work for some cases but I am far more concerned about the ability to diagnose properly what real gender dysphoria is vs home abuse and all the other psychosis that happen when families are broken. There is an undeniable link to psychosis and abuse.

However if a person transitions who isn't truly transgender that is also very destructive. Just as much so as what you are suggesting. Regardless of the sensationalized transition regret it is also a real thing.

There are also some things you haven't answered I asked.

I think it's a tricky situation. You can see I am not saying it should never be done. Just that it rarely should be done. If you follow the trends in psychology they just don't have the self control when examined as a whole. For instance the board of endocrinology saying that 70-85 revert back to their birth sex during puberty. That is a real cause for concern when stopping puberty in its first phase even.

I think we both agree it's a hard situation. Because of the severity of the decision the medical industry should put in some serious safeguards against misdiagnosis.
edit on 23-3-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 06:39 PM
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originally posted by: wanderlustqueen
i'm a female, and have always been attracted to males. i was also always a tomboy...

sometimes i felt like it would just be much easier to be a boy. some nights before bed i'd close my eyes and wish over and over again that i could wake up as a male. of course that didn't happen. also, i didn't talk about this to anyone because i felt like i would be made fun of, or that i would be thought of as weird. in fact, i think this is the first time i've ever said anything about this, and i'm 32 years old.

Thank you for joining the discussion and for bravely sharing your personal story. Things like this are sometimes difficult to say especially if they sometimes contain an element of shame, guilt or simple embarrassment or if they are thoughts we've kept to ourselves for a long time.

If it is any comfort, your feelings, dreams and wishes at that time of your life are pretty common, not that unusual and closely align with many typical "tomboy" and gender non-conforming narratives. I think at puberty and early adolescence, most of us go through a period of questioning, wishing and fantasizing as our adult personalities and orientations develop and we find our place in the world and in our bodies. I agree it would be best to discuss and explore these feelings openly and without shame or fear and that is happening to some degree with youth of today and the widening of gender expressions and push against the binary.

It is important to note that while there are many similarities and reasons one might wish or dream about being the opposite gender, there is a distinction for gender dysphoric transgender children that know they are the opposite gender and that their bodies are of the wrong sex or don't fit who they are. Again, insistence, consistence and persistence are the key indicators here. This discussion is so very difficult because the lines blur and overlap and "transgender" is such a vague, nebulous umbrella term with different meanings to different people. There are a lot of transgender, gender expansive and non-binary identities that have more to do with the social constructs of gender than the body dysphoria of transsexualism. The changing nature of terminology and language used to discuss these things makes it all that more difficult to discuss, but I digress...

Your point being made or at least what I take from your story supports the poster luthier's position that cross gender ideation is often a phase that desists during the influences of puberty and increasing emotional/psychological maturity and I certainly do not deny that in many cases this happens and is true. Your story is testimony to that.

luthier also points out the importance of and difficulty in accurately diagnosing gender dysphoria in children and how possibly the MIC (medical industrial complex) has too easily jumped on the transgender bandwagon machine and the therapeutic triad of blockers, HRT and SRS as rote. I won't say I don't share some of his concerns and criticisms but will save that discussion for future posts.

Finally, no one is teaching anyone to be transgender any more than they are taught to be homosexual. Both are normally occurring parts of the human condition that many would prefer didn't exist or be hidden away lest anyone's mind become perverted or cause society to crumble. The sooner that people realize we are all different and unique and accept diversity in others as just the way humanity is, the better world we will live in.


and as for the 4 year old example...? yeah, naah. no surgery.

I get it. Difficult and complicated topics and threads such as these take a lot of reading. You must have missed this part if you think anything medically would be done to children this young.


if you asked me what i wanted to be at 4, i'd say a wolf, and would have happily received a surgical treatment for a tail, ears, and pointier canines.

Did you really just go there?



edit on 3/23/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 07:49 PM
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a reply to: Freija

I hate to sound like a broken record but I wish everybody could argue and acknowledge the way you do on ATS.

I have one minor arguement to people not wanting to be gay or trans and they would never make such a thing up.

I think most of the time that is correct. However I have seen groups of kids copy each other in middle school over anything for attention. Of course this would just be phase unless the attention they received (and have been missing at home) makes them feel something besides loneliness. I think a good psychologist certainly could pick through that mess but an average or bad one with a once a week appointment may not. Some are so arrogant they get off on fixing kids not helping them. I think it would tend to be phase but if the MIC pushes treatments that have potentially a lifeline customer.

I personally think the difference is easy to see but I have a natural empathic personality and have worked with a lot of kids. Particularly ones with some discipline issues because of home life.

I do agree with plenty of your comments. Just wanted to get that out. It's such a tough subject because often the parents don't know how to deal with this and you are at the hands of a Dr. Which could be fine but without someone who actually cares and knows the child difficult.

This article is what made my reactions to your posts. I have not thoroughly researched all the examples however.
www.cbsnews.com...



posted on Mar, 23 2016 @ 09:06 PM
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The ACP is close to the truth, but it's far more sinister. A large percentage of transgender/homosexual/pedophilia is produced from SRA (Serial Ritual Abuse) incest/child rape of parents or guardians heavily involved in the occult, and also from cult practitioners masquerading as child care workers employed at hundreds of Day Care Centers across America, and continue a systematic child rape/abuse campaign to satisfy satanic/luciferian lust.

If your child suffers from Dissociative Identity Disorder, Attention Deficit Disorder, constantly withdrawn, compulsive disorders or an obvious inclination of hurting animals, I suggest seeking professional help
for your child and immediately taking them out of Day Care. The occult conspiracy is greater than most
people would believe.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 11:33 AM
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if you asked me what i wanted to be at 4, i'd say a wolf, and would have happily received a surgical treatment for a tail, ears, and pointier canines.

Did you really just go there?




yes, why yes, i did. when i was 4 i wanted desperately to be a wolf and thought i was. i felt like i was a stranger in my own body sometimes. i wore a tail and ears most of the time and acted like one, especially while playing with my dogs. however, that passed eventually, ah haha.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 02:44 PM
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a reply to: wanderlustqueen

Well, I was going to say something snarky but I already did that once with the "did you really go there" comment in my reply to your original post. Rather than do that, since you obviously missed it before and didn't get it, I'll explain - again.

To the point of being almost comical or a meme, in discussions about transgender children inevitably someone will say "when I was that age, I wanted to be an ____". In this thread alone, one poster said they wanted to be a horse and another wanted to be a TMNT and you a wolf.

It really isn't that funny or comical and shows a lack of understanding of the depth and seriousness in these kid's convictions of who they are as PEOPLE, not animals, not cartoon characters and not make-believe or fantasy or someone created from their imagination.

I get the point that people are trying to make, that young kids come up with all sorts of crazy ideas. Having gender dysphoria or being transgender isn't one of them.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 03:10 PM
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a reply to: Freija

Not to be a jerk but we have no idea what gender dysphoria is yet. Neuroscience will weigh in with what parts of the brain may be involved shortly but I don't think we understand that it isn't an an extreme version of what Queen is talking about. The prefrontal cortex development is complex.

I found this study

“Trans people have brains that are different from males and females, a unique kind of brain,” Guillamon says. “It is simplistic to say that a female-to-male transgender person is a female trapped in a male body. It's not because they have a male brain but a transsexual brain.” Of course, behavior and experience shape brain anatomy, so it is impossible to say if these subtle differences are inborn.

Other investigators have looked at sex differences through brain functioning. In a study published in 2014, psychologist Sarah M. Burke of VU University Medical Center in Amsterdam and biologist Julie Bakker of the Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience used functional MRI to examine how 39 prepubertal and 41 adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded to androstadienone, an odorous steroid with pheromonelike properties that is known to cause a different response in the hypothalamus of men versus women. They found that the adolescent boys and girls with gender dysphoria responded much like peers of their experienced gender. The results were less clear with the prepubertal children.

This kind of study is important, says Baudewijntje Kreukels, an expert on gender dysphoria at VU University Medical Center, “because sex differences in responding to odors cannot be influenced by training or environment.” The same can be said of another 2014 experiment by Burke and her colleagues. They measured the responses of boys and girls with gender dysphoria to echolike sounds produced by the inner ear in response to a clicking noise. Boys with gender dysphoria responded more like typical females, who have a stronger response to these sounds. But girls with gender dysphoria also responded like typical females.



www.scientificamerican.com...

I don't think the pain and tourment of a child has anything to do with whether or not what queen was talking about has any role in this though I think I get what you are saying.

Like I keep saying the experts say 70-85 percent of children revert back to their birth sex. We both liked that article.

To accurately look at science you have to leave out emotion. I don't think Queen was being insensitive. Just offering a hypothesis.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 03:12 PM
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a reply to: Freija

Hey Freija!
The strange part of all this is that people are taking it seriously. There is a woman who identifies with being a cat. (She hisses, and speaks in meows.) Actually there's a few, but here's a link to the one:
www.telegraph.co.uk...

And of course there are 'Furries'...grown people who dress up as animals. Athough Furry Fandom is a sub-culture, and I don't believe anyone has had surgery.
en.wikipedia.org...

The people who are 'identifying' with being an animal aren't going to help the transgender population at all. I can't even begin to understand what would make a person claim this, but my first thought is "attention".
Transgender people, on the other hand...would probably (mostly) prefer to transition and live life without the intrusive attention.

jacy



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 06:06 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

Not to be a jerk but we have no idea what gender dysphoria is yet. Neuroscience will weigh in with what parts of the brain may be involved shortly but I don't think we understand that it isn't an an extreme version of what Queen is talking about. The prefrontal cortex development is complex.


Oh, what it is is completely understood and the diagnostic criteria well defined even in the DSM-IV. (Couldn't find the DSM-V but am still looking) What causes gender dysphoria isn't known exactly but all indications point to it being biological in origin.



Again with the prefontal cortex thing? I spent the entire afternoon yesterday looking for any reference to this as it applies to the treatment of transgender children or the administration of blockers or HRT. Got nothing. Even in the Endocrine Society's clinical guidelines titled Endocrine Treatment of Transsexual Persons, section 2.0 - Treatment of Adolescents, the primary concern with blockers and HRT is bone density and height development.


Like I keep saying the experts say 70-85 percent of children revert back to their birth sex. We both liked that article.


Well, this figure and these "experts" are simply wrong and this information needs to die and go away. I will link this again for your review: The End of the Desistance Myth.


To accurately look at science you have to leave out emotion. I don't think Queen was being insensitive. Just offering a hypothesis.


I don't think anyone's story of wanting to be a ____ as a child is meant to intentionally be insensitive but it is really dehumanizing to these kids when something so fundamental and crucial to their personalities and who they are as people is compared with make believe or fantasy. What it does illustrate is the complexity and difficulty of understanding something so completely foreign and unrelateable to most people's experience. One way I've heard this said when trying to explain what gender dysphoria feels like to a cisgender person is like it is trying explain the color red to someone that has been sightless from birth.

Thank you your link and information. I have read some more in-depth analysis of this and it is interesting. I have some other studies available I won't link to publicly. One thing to keep in mind is that the vast majority of transgender people couldn't care less about why they are transgender. Research and literature does seem to be of value in explaining things to other people though.


edit on 3/24/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 06:15 PM
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originally posted by: jacygirl

The people who are 'identifying' with being an animal aren't going to help the transgender population at all.


Precisely. It is unfair to even make such a comparison.


Transgender people, on the other hand...would probably (mostly) prefer to transition and live life without the intrusive attention.

jacy


The transgender people seen in the media are not representative of the tens of thousands of transgender people that live normal everyday lives as just men or women.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 06:28 PM
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a reply to: Freija

I think you are very close to the subject so it may cause you to emotionally address the situation.

Those numbers 75-80 percent are from a link you provided by the endocrinologists. You can't on one hand use them as a reference for safety of blockers and then say they don't know what they are talking about.

The blockers issue I am referring to is your potentially postponing the actual mechanism that would allow the gender dysphoria to revert to the natural birth sex.

The pre frontal cortex issues I am talking about are the development of the brain in youth. Has nothing to do with the blockers. Some children have issues with this development. It can cause all kinds of effects. Not to mention they have very poor judgment because of the lack of its development naturally.

Trans people should certainly care about research that has to do with physical science as well as psychology. Thats the only way to get a full understanding.

What happens to trans people if they can't get hormones? What happens if we end up in a situation where supply chains are interrupted?

This is why the neuroscience aspect is so important. You don't want to only treat the emotions of a person and ignore the physiological basis for treatment. That happens all the time in psychology.

Your link is a huff post article opinion piece not a peer reviewed scientific study. Even then you have to look close.

I have been a trans advocate for a child as I said before. I just don't think rushing to conclusions on a subject not understood is a good move. If you read closely you will see it's not well understood. You have to look at the vernacular in the studies. I have never read definitive language on this subject. Guidelines are not definitive. They are what we currently understand.

Don't get me wrong I understand the emotional side very well. I just don't hold the same belief and trust in diagnosis by the psychiatric field you do. Getting it wrong is every bit as destructive as not doing anything in the case of permant (actual gender change) or delaying puberty which could actually cause a reversion back to the original sex.

edit on 24-3-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 08:13 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
I think you are very close to the subject so it may cause you to emotionally address the situation.


I'm just standing up for kids facing some very tough challenges in life and empathize with their parents. Makes it a little hard to not be a bit emotional or reactive at times. Sorry, not sorry for being passionate about something.


Those numbers 75-80 percent are from a link you provided by the endocrinologists. You can't on one hand use them as a reference for safety of blockers and then say they don't know what they are talking about.


Good ol' Dr. Zucker from Canada at work again. These figures are pervasive unfortunately and have been taken at face value by many organizations failing to do their own due diligence. Seeing how Zucker's clinic has been shut down and he's been basically run out of town on rails, these statistics and everything this man has said needs to stop being taken as any sort of proof of anything. He's a fraud and these statistics without merit.

Dr. Johanna Olsen says the kids she sees don't change their mind. Many others echo the same sentiment.

This video refers to research conducted at the University of Washington. They also currently have several hundred kids involved and more being added all the time in a long term study so this 80% thing can go bye bye.

More information on the implied/implicit testing done at the UW mentioned in the above:

Transgender Kids Show Consistent Gender Identity Across Measures


The blockers issue I am referring to is your potentially postponing the actual mechanism that would allow the gender dysphoria to revert to the natural birth sex.

The pre frontal cortex issues I am talking about are the development of the brain in youth. Has nothing to do with the blockers. Some children have issues with this development. It can cause all kinds of effects. Not to mention they have very poor judgment because of the lack of its development naturally.


And you got your medical degree where? I acknowledge the fact you've previously noted my ability to discuss these things in a level headed manner but you're off on your own unsubstantiated tangent and theory and repeatedly expressed your mistrust and paranoia in the medical profession. Not that a degree of caution isn't warranted but when you do things that observably and markedly reduce suffering in a child and improve their happiness and satisfaction with life, what really matters?

If your "puberty makes gender dysphoria go away" theory was true, how do you explain those in late adolescence or adults that have gone through puberty and still suffer from it? Gender dysphoria varies in intensity but it is a lifelong thing that doesn't go away.


Trans people should certainly care about research that has to do with physical science as well as psychology. Thats the only way to get a full understanding.


Well, I think you might find trans people care less about the why than non-trans people. I'll quote something I wrote in another thread:


It's like if you smash your finger with a hammer, you know it hurts but how that signal travels up your arm, through your spine and what it does when it hits your grey matter is of little consequence. The mechanics of how the pain in your finger is registered is irrelevant to the fact that your damn finger hurts.



What happens to trans people if they can't get hormones? What happens if we end up in a situation where supply chains are interrupted? This is why the neuroscience aspect is so important. You don't want to only treat the emotions of a person and ignore the physiological basis for treatment. That happens all the time in psychology.

First of all, you're going to end up with a lot of pissed off trans people! Short of insurrection or societal collapse, what do you think would happen or why it would happen? There are some transgender people that are unable to even take hormones or have to stop taking them for health reasons. Do you think this will suddenly make them revert to their assigned birth sex? What does this even have to do with why transgender people are the way they are? Regardless of whether some biological cause can be determined or if it is purely psychological, the treatment is the same.


I have been a trans advocate for a child as I said before.

And this is something that has touched my family directly and been an issue since the early 1960's. It does become personal when it hits so close to home. I can't help that.


I just don't think rushing to conclusions on a subject not understood is a good move. If you read closely you will see it's not well understood. You have to look at the vernacular in the studies. I have never read definitive language on this subject. Guidelines are not definitive. They are what we currently understand.

And I'll quote a line from a Bob Dylan song... "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".

Taking a break now to try and reclaim my maturity and decorum.



posted on Mar, 24 2016 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: Freija

When those numbers go bye bye and they are done so in a scientific manner I have no problem accepting that.


Within its clinical practice guidelines for the treatment of transsexual persons, the Endocrine Society suggests that for most children with GID, the condition will not persist into adolescence. Acknowledging that percentages differ between studies, the society maintains that "the large majority (75-80%) of prepubertal children with a diagnosis of GID in childhood do not turn out to be transsexual in adolescence." The society further elaborates its opinion on the matter: "Clinical experience suggests that GID can be reliably assessed only after the first signs of puberty."

The Endocrine Society is a professional, international medical organization in the field of endocrinology and metabolism, founded in 1916 as The Association for the Study of Internal Secretions.
Richard J. Santen, MD - Past-President
Lisa H. Fish, MD - President
Henry Kronenberg, MD - President-Elect
Kenneth H. Hupart, MD - Secretary-Treasurer
Carol A. Lange, PhD - Vice President (Basic Scientist)
Susan J. Mandel, MD, MPH - Vice President (Physician-in-Practice)
Anthony McCall, MD - Vice President (Clinical Scientist)

As far as turning back to the original gender not necessarily. I think they will have serious health problems. Osteoporosis, strokes, etc.

Bob Dylan quotes are not science.

As far as my background I have a philosophy degree and sound engineering degree. My brother is a particle physicist and my wife is a research scientist. I don't have a medical degree. Do you?

My point to mention I fought for a trans child to be able to wrestle boys in high school was to say I am not coming at this as a bigot. I just don't think expirementing with an unknown possible neurological condition unless absolutely certainty should not become standard practice. Yes extreme cases and cases where parents and drs have Thoroughly studied the situation probably makes sense.



posted on Mar, 25 2016 @ 12:46 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
When those numbers go bye bye and they are done so in a scientific manner I have no problem accepting that.


I have little doubt that they will! If you'd like to look at some of the work being done at the UW: Landmark study to track ‘pioneer’ generation of transgender children. You can also read more about the broader study, The TransYouth Project



Perhaps you can review their criteria and make sure it meets your standards? Please do keep in mind that what we are talking about here is still an extremely rare group of statistically microscopic numbers.


Within its clinical practice guidelines for the treatment of transsexual persons, the Endocrine Society suggests that for most children with GID, the condition will not persist into adolescence. Acknowledging that percentages differ between studies, the society maintains that "the large majority (75-80%) of prepubertal children with a diagnosis of GID in childhood do not turn out to be transsexual in adolescence."


So where are the statistics and metrics the Endocrine Society used to come up with these percentages? If you are looking at the 2009 PDF, reference #45 - Zucker and Bradley from Canada. FAIL!! If you read it they also suggest waiting until Tanner Stage 2-3 which I think has been revised? There's a half dozen pediatric endos here locally offering care to trans kids. Maybe I'll do a survery?

For someone that is so suspicious of the MIC and research... well, you know.


As far as turning back to the original gender not necessarily. I think they will have serious health problems. Osteoporosis, strokes, etc.


Yeah, just like post menopausal natal women. (Oops! My bad for not being PC to the transgender community. Let me qualify that last statement by specifying I meant women with a transsexual medical history that have a vagina - I'm sure I'm offending someone?) Undoubtedly, there may be some special health concerns. Rhetorically speaking, tell me again why anyone would want to be trans?


Bob Dylan quotes are not science.


Hey, neither is music but with the way it seems they are in today's political climate, things are building up and starting to feel like a lot of the tumultuous 1960's when revolutions of social and political change were in the air. Some of us older folks had anthems back then. Some still kind of hold true.



As far as my background I have a philosophy degree and sound engineering degree. My brother is a particle physicist and my wife is a research scientist. I don't have a medical degree. Do you?


How many inches?


My point to mention I fought for a trans child to be able to wrestle boys in high school was to say I am not coming at this as a bigot.

Thank you for that. I am sure it meant a lot to him and his family and I've never felt or insinuated that you were a bigot. A little hard-headed maybe and stuck on a point I don't agree with that I think if you knew a little bit more you might think differently on but a bigot? Naw, you've shown you're one of the good guys.


I just don't think expirementing with an unknown possible neurological condition unless absolutely certainty should not become standard practice. Yes extreme cases and cases where parents and drs have Thoroughly studied the situation probably makes sense.


You're a worthy and intelligent adversary that has raised some good points I agree with. I have enjoyed our discussion because you too have communicated well and given me things to think about and perspectives I maybe didn't have. I feel or sense that you have been engaged by it as well and may also look at this as a teaching/learning moment in some respects or just a chance to broaden horizons or knowledge in some way as I have.

With that in mind, I don't know if should mention it or let it go? You have been decent, unlike some around here and I give you a lot of credit for that and for help with your wrestling boy but I would like you to read this: How to Spot Anti-Trans Concern Trolls and see if any of it fits and how you might improve when discussing these things?

Not trying to be (too) snarky, you've been a champ - just sayin'. I do apologize for my occasional lapses into defensiveness and sarcasm. Hey, what fun would ATS be without a little spunk now and then?




edit on 3/25/2016 by Freija because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2016 @ 09:33 AM
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a reply to: Freija

How many inches? Was that insult? Come on Freija. The point I was making was I am a product of my environment. If I am hard headed it's because of the type of mind I have. It wasn't bragging it was an explanation after you insulted me. You will notice I have not done that back. As a philosophy student I was taught to debate. Does that make me better in some way as a person...absolutley not.

I think you mistake my arguements sometimes.

I don't think anyone would want to be trans outside of a temporary situation that would easily be deciphered by a good Dr. Like for the sake of becoming part of a group when austrisized at home. I have seen this with sexuality proclamations in middle school kids who barely know what they are talking about. It's temporary and easy to spot.

So yeah never would say anyone wants to be trans.

The society of endocrinology excerpt actually says they used a cross of several studies.

I am extremely cautious about all aspects of medical intervention. Thats just me. It isn't always from studies. I will accept my own failures of understanding when I see the thourough information analysis. That is for everything that has to do with medical intervention. It caries over to this subject. It's hard headed. However if I wasn't this way my son would be on aderol by now. Even though I could allow him succeful academic achievement by being a dedicated parent without drugs.

I am sorry if you feel insulted in anyway which would have caused you to be insulting (unless I misunderstand some of your comments).

I appreciate your intelligent and advocacy for children who are suffering. If you knew me you would know my intentions are good and I too make it a priority to help kids with life. Usually on my part it's economically and family deprived kids along with antibullying tactics (through self defence tactics that include posture and language).

I appreciate this discussion as well and will spend some time in the next week's going through your information.

PS I am going to ignore your troll comment. Decenting opinions need to be tolerated when decorum of debate is followed. If anything I would say look closer at who has done done some personal attacking in this thread.
edit on 25-3-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2016 @ 03:52 PM
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a reply to: iterationzero

Your reply sounds like Don't trust physicians that are not profiting at all from their advise, but Trust from the one given by physicians that are getting a lot of income from the making up of gender "treatments" either through surgery or hormone "therapy".

It is easy to see clearly the real motivations of the physicians you recommend.

Of course a child is abused when somebody take a decision over he or she that will affect for ever his or her life in an irreversible way.

Gender identity is a psychological structure and any unbalance of it must be treated at the level of the mind functioning, it has nothing to do with the body.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness
edit on 3/25/2016 by The angel of light because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 25 2016 @ 04:38 PM
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This is my first post on ats, I've lurked here for years. I always read threads on this topic, and love seeing all the different points of view on the topic and the large number of well informed people explaining Gender Dysphoria to those who do not have first hand knowledge about it or experience with someone who does, makes me hopeful for this world. It does make sense that someone who has never encountered this topic before to remain skeptical. It's literally something they could never wrap their minds around, in terms of what it would be like to experience it. It is much more than a feeling or sensation. it lies much deeper in the (un)conscious experience of life. So much so that the average person probably doesn't realize that they have a gender identity, because it is right in line with their biological sex, they take it for granted without even knowing it was there in the first place. But what do I know, I can't imagine what it is like to be born with all of that inline.

My Experience with Gender Dysphoria

I'm a student who is kind of almost done with two degrees, one in Cell/Microbiology, with heavy emphasis on Genetics, and Biochemistry. I plan to go to grad school to study Genetics and hopefully become a professor/researcher. I also happen to be transgender, male to female. My experience being transgender has been a long and silent one, despite having liberal parents who were supportive of everything I did in life. I remember the day I realized it very vividly, it is as far as I can remember my earliest memory. I was 2 years old and was playing with sesame street number blocks on the window sill. There really wasn't anything that triggered it. It just kind of dawned on me, being 2 I didn't really understand what it meant but I just knew. From that point on I became increasingly more aware of myself, more aware of people around me, more empathetic. I remember in preschool when I was close to turning 4, sitting outside by myself watching the girls and boys playing, not knowing what group was okay for me to join. I would often wonder if others felt the same way as me, and if they did how can they be so happy and carefree. The years went on, met my best friend in kindergarten, I remember going up to him, and because of him having long hair, asking him if he was a boy or girl. Ironically. I made quite a few friends in elementary school, and tried to ignore the dysphoria as best I could, some days it wasn't terrible others I would fake being sick so I wouldn't have to go to school. I hated going to school because I was constantly reminded that boys were boys and girls were girls. I always avoided hanging out with the girls because I saw how other kids would treat the boys who did in 4th and 5th grade calling them gay etc. In Middle school things got worst. I was bullied by most of the kids I had been friends with in elementary school, constantly called gay, faggot, etc. The only one who didn't was the aforementioned best friend. I don't know what I did to be treated that way, maybe it was because I didn't want to engage in the typical activities of the friends of old. I didn't enjoy roughhousing or exploring the storm drains or anything else they did. I would much rather play video games or read. On top of that, sex education, that week only confirmed what I already knew was going to happen to me. Regrettably so I didn't tell my parents how I felt. I'm not sure why, mostly thoughts of being bullied, or beat up, or complete rejection from everyone at school. By the time I was 11 I had extremely hairy legs and my voice had already started to deepen, I also gained a lot of weight due to stress eating and a sedentary lifestyle of playing videogames everyday after school to escape the thoughts. Luckily I've always been gifted when I came to school, made As all through elementary and middle school without having to do anything. When I was 13 my mom caught me with her clothes and ended up in therapy, I remember the psychologist asking me if I felt as though I was a girl, and to much of my dismay today, I, while internally screaming this is my chance, said "no." When I think back to it, it makes me want to punch myself in the gut and whisper into my ear "screw everyone else they aren't people you want as friends if they don't accept you, it only gets worst, its disrespectful to lie to your parents." High school rolled around, still doing well with minimum effort, not As because not doing my homework but still high Bs. At this point I just hoped that it would go away. By the time I reached college the suicidal thoughts were consistent and it was also around this time I started to discover online transgender communities and had it drilled into me, despite already knowing, that the sooner the better and it never goes away. So during a night of partying with friends I was carefree enough to just say it, the best friend was their along with another who I hold to same esteem. A week later I told my parents, they were also supportive, my dad only cared about cost, and my mom was just worried, thinking it would be easier to be gay, but that didn't make any sense, I didn't like guys back then. 2 months later I started transitioning and everyone I knew in college was extremely supportive and everyone at my job was as well. At this point I'm much much happier the dysphoria doesn't crop up nearly as often, people who knew me would tell me I look happier and have a more natural looking body language. They all swear up and down that everything about me before makes sense and that they always sensed something was off about me. Suicidal thoughts are 99% gone at this point, and have been living as myself for years now. I consider myself lucky

Theories

This is intrinsically a hard thing to research, most transgender people hide it, and its hard to make controls. People who are usually want to start hormones sooner rather than later. Literally experimenting on people, I mean to get a good positive control you would need kids who have been diagnosed and then not give them any kind of treatment or would you give them the treatment and not give any to the experimental groups, eh. I could be a number of things, epigenetic cues sent by hormones in utero whether or not its too much or too little of some signal or suite of genes that when activated in the correct way cause a break in the normal development pathway. Or genes from the mother/father failing to deactivate or activate at the correct point to match what is classically done during male/female development. Both sexes have the genes that control most down stream development. (The only thing that the Y chromosome does in terms of sex determination is SRY gene, if this is dysfunctional then it leads to sex reversal, making the fetus develop as a classical female. There is also XX males and XY females who, due to crossing over during meiosis either gain the SRY gene on the X chromosome or lose the SRY gene on the Y chromosome respectively, both are infertile.) Timing also plays a huge role during development if the brain timing is different from the gonads then they could develop differently due to environmental changes in the uterus. I could spend hours typing all the different scenarios.

Don't be afraid to ask questions or correct factual errors, sources, SRY and epigenetics wiki is good. To my knowledge GD hasn't been researched genetically, I think their has been w/ mice, but sex development differs a lot



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