The Scottish Rite in English Freemasonry - the Christian entrance requirement dilemma

a reply to: Willingly

I think George Osbourne, the Chancellor of the United Kingdom, would make an obvious & fitting vessel for the Antichrist. Yesterday he announced that he was removing welfare support for hundreds of thousands of disabled people, while simultaneously offering tax breaks to the rich. He's a moral disgrace, deserves to be thrown in a human-sized bleneder, and even looks the part of 'evil genius plotting to take over the world'.

a reply to: Sahabi

Freemasonry admits morally upright candidates. Freemasonry encourages the cultivation of upright morals to their members. The natural tendency for goodness and the encouragement and work of further goodness is theorized to guide one to wickedness and evil upon completion? That's where the conspiracy falls direly short.

I think I get your point, but what if someone who would be diagnosed as a sociopath or psychopath by experts, would become a member by pretending to be willing and able to live a good and moral life but actually is just a functioning psychopath, who has learned how to assume the fassade of a good and moral person?

Or someone who believes in a "supreme being" that is in fact an evil force, but the candidate thinks it's THE supreme being?

In other words, how can you be sure that the candidates are all good and moral people? What kind of test do you have to prove that as being the case?

Know what I'm driving at?

I don't think any kind of system is completely water-proof. To claim that in free-masonry are only good and moral people would be a little bit too optimistic, IMHO.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

wow, that was probably the weirdest post ive ever seen.. And i post a lot of weird s***

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

But im glad you found a buddy who believes in a dream monster called Cthulhu,

ill remember the word solipsism delusion, or i just pick up a book, and what do i find? Ooooooh something that actually names all the tools in a freemasons little box, and the best part.. i can actually reference it to something real..

But im sure you have a Girlfriend, in the real world..

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

I think George Osbourne, the Chancellor of the United Kingdom, would make an obvious & fitting vessel for the Antichrist. Yesterday he announced that he was removing welfare support for hundreds of thousands of disabled people, while simultaneously offering tax breaks to the rich. He's a moral disgrace, deserves to be thrown in a human-sized bleneder, and even looks the part of 'evil genius plotting to take over the world'.

I prefer to call that dude a disgusting scum-bag, too freaking stupid to be the anti-christ.

a reply to: crayzeed

but is it the same for american freemasonry? Cause from my impression they do their own thing..

a reply to: SahabiThere is no puzzle. Mumbo-jumbo and puzzlement were things that were added after. It really weas that simple.

a reply to: Saurus

I'm not a Mason, but I agree with you and Pike wholeheartedly.

Isaac Newton studied the Bible extensively and it was from his understanding of the Bible that he refused to accept the Christian 'Last Rites' on his deathbed. I think that says it all!

(Afterthought: Do Christians even believe in 'One God' with their Trinity Doctrine?)

originally posted by: Sahabi
a reply to: Willingly

One must be a good person of good reputation to join Freemasonry. Thereafter, Freemasonry teaches the individual to cultivate additional goodness in their thoughts, emotions, words, and actions.

A morally and ethically good person prior to Masonry becomes a morally and ethically good Freemason. And then it is expected by the conspiracists that one would drop the qualities of goodness to suddenly accept evil and wickedness? It doesn't make sense to me.

Well, a lot of your more wicked criminals are "good people of good reputation". At least people think they're moral and ethical until they get caught. Why would it suddenly be different because they joined the free masons?

My dad quit paying his dues and effectively removed himself from the free masons due to certain ethical and moral reasons. So either he's unethical and immoral and lied/exaggerated, or his lodge really had ethical and moral issues. Either way, your point is countered.

Also, do you have much of an understanding of how cults operate? Dude, the free masons are completely ripe for firming a cult somewhere in the mix. It certainly doesn't mean that the masons as a whole are part of the illuminati or anything. It just means that masons are still simply men. Of course some members are sinister in nature. That's not paranoid. It's a grand illusion to think otherwise. It's naive.

Also, while I know very little about It, there is some "sect" in the free masons that effectively worship some weird god. This is alleged by members of my own family whom i trust. I realize you don't know them or me and it means squat to you. Why would you just suddenly trust what I'm telling you. Still, paranoid? Not really.

a reply to: Maigret

(Afterthought: Do Christians even believe in 'One God' with their Trinity Doctrine?)

Yes, we are monotheistic. The trinity is representative of one God in three different capacities. Think of it like water. Water has three different forms, but it's always water.

Listen, my brother, to our explanation of the symbols of the Degree, and then give them such further interpretation as you think fit.

The Cross has been a sacred symbol from the earliest Antiquity. It is found upon all the enduring monuments of the world, in Egypt, in Assyria, in Hindostan, in Persia, and on the Buddhist towers of Ireland. Buddha was said to have died upon it. The Druids cut an oak into its shape and held it sacred, and built their temples in that form. Pointing to the four quarters of the world, it was the symbol of universal nature. It was on a cruciform tree, that Chrishna was said to have expired, pierced with arrows. It was revered in Mexico.

But its peculiar meaning in this Degree, is that given to it by the Ancient Egyptians. Thoth or Phtha is represented on the oldest monuments carrying in his hand the Crux Ansata, or Ankh, [a Tau cross, with a ring or circle over it]. He is so seen on the double tablet of Shufu and Noh Shufu, builders of the greatest of the Pyramids, at Wady Meghara, in the peninsula of Sinai. It was the hieroglyphic for life, and with a triangle prefixed meant life-giving. To us therefore it is the symbol of Life—of that life that emanated from the Deity, and of that Eternal Life for which we all hope; through our faith in God's infinite goodness.

The ROSE, was anciently sacred to Aurora and the Sun. It is a symbol of Dawn, of the resurrection of Light and the renewal of life, and therefore of the dawn of the first day, and more particularly of the resurrection: and the Cross and Rose together are therefore hieroglyphically to be read, the Dawn of Eternal Life which all Nations have hoped for by the advent of a Redeemer.

— Morals & Dogma, Ch. XVIII, pp291-292

a reply to: crayzeed
For my Masonic brothers, we're not talking "mumbo-jumbo", but the OP is asking a pertinent question.

"The vast majority of masonic 'rites' are" not bull s**t. Many of them are quite meaningful.

No, you don't have to be invited to join, in fact, it's the opposite. You are simply wrong on this point.

You are simply stuck on operative Masonry. You are very ignorant about the emergence and evolution of speculative Freemasonry.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment
AM is a god? I thought it was my turn!!

a reply to: JohnFisher
Well, you're generalizing an entire group over an experience you didn't even have. Your dad's experience and leaving the fraternity doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Freemasonry. Quit using illogical arguments.

Fremasonry isn't a cult: www.abovetopsecret.com...

What "sect of Freemasonry" worships "some weird god"?

a reply to: JohnFisher
To play devil's advocate, Hindus believe that all of the millions of gods and goddesses are but aspects and avatars of a single god. Sounds similar to Christianity, just expansive.

a reply to: AlbertPike

The Druids cut an oak into its shape and held it sacred, and built their temples in that form. Pointing to the four quarters of the world, it was the symbol of universal nature. It was on a cruciform tree, that Chrishna was said to have expired, pierced with arrows. It was revered in Mexico.

can you source this?

originally posted by: Tsuro
can you source this?

Frazer's The Golden Bough (1890) & Doane's Bible Myths (1882).

originally posted by: JohnFisher

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Saurus

In Scotland, it used to be that Catholics couldn't be masons, it was only for Protestants, but I don't know if that is still the case. Is that where the idea of a 'one God' requirement came from (ie not a trinity) or has this got nothing to do with Scotland?

I don't think that has anything to do with it regarding the trinity because protestants believe in the trinity as well. The trinity is all the same one God. Think of it in terms of water. You have ice, liquid, and vapor, but in all three forms it is still the same water.

Was that the case before Calvinism and the reformation? Genuine question, because I don't know. I know Presbyterian family who dismiss it as a 'Roman thing' and so assumed that the Trinity had become absorbed into the protestant faith at a later date, with Knox and Calvin.

a reply to: Tsuro

You are posting very strange comments, and I find your attitude in response to my honest concern to be quite offensive. And yes, I'm a married man - but what has that got to do with anything? Seriously, you do need to get some professional help, I hope things work out for you.

a reply to: Willingly

Yup, he's a #ing disgrace to humanity. For the benefit of our American friends, I'll explain a little:

George Osbourne is a silver-spoon douche, somehow (by virtue of being born into a wealthy family) became the Chancellor of the Exchequer here in the UK. He recently suggested that $55 per week should be taken from the welfare benefits paid to seriously disabled people, and at the same time pushed for tax breaks for people at the upper-middle class tax band.

The amount of money he planned to remove from the disabled, was almost exactly equal to the amount of money he was offering to the wealthy in those planned tax breaks. Therefore, there was no net gain caused by the proposed action (removal of disabled benefits) in terms of money saved by the state - he was literally proposing to take money from disabled folk, the most vulnerable in the nation, & give it to people who are already much more affluent than most of the people in the UK.

Disgusting, heartless, evil. Honestly, words can't express how angry this # has made me, and many others here in the UK. Thankfully, the plans have been halted, by the resignation in protest & vocal condemnation of the plans by high-ranking colleagues of Mr Osbourne, putting the proposals squarely in the sights of a party rebellion & thankfully defeating them.

But the slimy bastard will doubtless try again. He already pushed through a $50 dollar a week reduction for many disabled folk, even before the latest proposal. He's the worst kind of scumbag there is, and I literally pray that he is dealt a death blow by some happy accident.

a reply to: FlyInTheOintment

That's nice and all, but what does any of this have to do with the OP's question about English Freemasonry as practiced in South Africa and the requirement that recipients of the Rose Croix degree profess a Christian faith?

The Exact Portion Of Christ Is As Follows...
Give To Ceaser What Is Ceaser's...
And To God... What Is God's.

Thus A Knight Of The Rosi-Croix Is What Is Christ's Portion. And It Is A Lesson Only For Christ's Followers...

If You Dare To Cross The Line... Then Be Prepared To Carry That Cross All The Days Of Your Life. She Is A Rose... And That Particular Crown Of Thorns Is But The Way Of Our Lord.
I Have No Idea What I'm Saying....
Loneliness Is My Greatest Companion.

a reply to: KSigMasonThe question the OP has asked I answered. You really don't get it. Freemasons "lodges" did not exist before the middle ages, actual history (not freemason history) shows this and in consequence as I said the emergence of masons came about from the builders of churches and cathederals and it automatically follows on you HAD to be Christian to work on these buildings. That is not even taking into concideration that at that time everybody was either Christian or pagan, but woebetide you if you were'nt Christian.
The whole structure of masonic rites directly correlates to the apprentice system of the masons (titles, and periods of time before you progress up the "rites") apprentice, journeyman and finally master mason.
I don't know how you do it in America but in England to get in the masons you have to be "friends" with one then they "introduce" you to other masons who decide if you are "worthy" to be admited. That my friend in my book is invited.
Yes, the rites are important and serious for masons BUT these have been added on after the event.
It's EXACTLY like the Knights Templar. Masonic lodges and their rites are a recent(a couple of hundred years) incarnation.