Deuteronomy 32:8 Yahweh a Son of God (The Most High)

It's spelled Gnostic, I am not an Essene... there is a big difference between the two. Essenes were the Zadikim, a strict ascetic community of Messianics.

Gnostic is a philosophical intelligent approach to life that derives knowledge from all the great faiths. The Nag Hammadi Christian tests are just one set of teachings, the Mythological texts are mostly based off Zoroastrianism, a religion that Christianity owes a great deal of concepts too as does the Qabalah. The concept of the Word becoming the Messiah, in fact Messiah itself is a PURELY Zoroastrianism concept and the Jews borrowed it from the Persians and the Greeks borrowed it from the Jews and it became Christ. It originated with the Persians and not the Jews. Have you ever noticed the lack of clear Messianic prophecy in the bible, or the desperate attempts to connect Isaiah's non virgin birth prophecy about Immanuel to Jesus, even though it is not related at all.

Jewish Persian contact is the source of the whole Messianic concept, that is a fact, not an opinion. You can Google it if you want to learn about it, but you don't strike me as the type of person who wants to know the facts you seem to prefer your delusions from what I can tell.

You don't think that it is important that Jehovah is not El Elyon, but itis very iimportant. And that is not my opinion, that is also a fact and has been proven already in this thread several times so if younneed proof read it.

Again, you seem like you prefer tocall aanything you don't like opinion with no proof. I will tell you some real opinions without proof.

Jesus existed. No proof of that.

God exists. No proof of that either.

The Bible is true. No proof.

So the next time you want to talk about opinions, remember your beliefs ARE opinions if you believe in the bible. There is no proof that the bible is true. At all. But you believe it, that's your opinion, not fact.


What is a historical fact is that the God El is not Yahweh, not opinion, fact. El is documented in ancient Canaan, Yahweh is not. Check with the Ugaritic texts if you need proof. Baal, Molech, Marduk are all there, butnot Yahweh. Yahweh was invented by priests around the second temple period. Moses and the Exodus are myths, another fact that you can not refute because there is no evidence of him ever existing.

Stop being a bitter Christian because you know your religion is a sham, nobody is forcing you to believe in it.

Don't bite the hidden hand ✋ that loves you lol

a reply to: Sassanid

Don't let the detractors drown you out - its fairly obvious for those who would look at the passages critically


"When Jehovah Was Not the God of the Old Testament. Part II"
www.patheos.com...

I conclude, therefore, along with such scholars as Mark S. Smith and John Day, that El and YHWH were originally two distinct deities in ancient Israel, and that they were amalgamated at a fairly early stage in the development of Israelite religion, perhaps sometime in the Late Bronze Age, although traces of an El cult seem to appear in Israel even into the Iron I period.[18]

The bible needs reformatting lol

a reply to: ChesterJohn

And you always flood threads with nothing more than one liners - do you have anything to refute the discussion,,,,

Thought not

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: ChesterJohn

And you always flood threads with nothing more than one liners - do you have anything to refute the discussion,,,,

Thought not

Sorry don't mean to offend in anyway. I just think we have it all backwards and we have an infinite time to get it right ourselves rather than listening to others words. We were given freewill to get it wrong and to get it right on an individual level before we can ascend to the collective. The Hidden Hand material really resonated with me. What we perceive to be true is actually false. Namaste

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: SerapisChrist

I saw a program with a Jewish scholar admitting that there is no chance of the Canaanite conquest of Joshua being a real historical event and that Jews understand from the get go that the Tanakh is a mixture of history and esoteric teachings told in myths. Christianity has always felt it can interpret the Tanakh as though it is a Christian book when it's a Jewish masterpiece that should be interpreted Judaically.

Religion is very personal simply because it backgrounds eternity or our afterlife. That is the reason most all will defend their views with the determination that they must be right and those who disagree must be wrong. But what is not considered, by most, is that perhaps all are wrong or all are right. How could this be in this case?

I am from Christian Jewish background from the order of the synagogue of James. Perhaps that disqualifies me from this discussion but first hear me out. Before Yahusha came into the flesh of terrestrial substance He existed in the celestial world as the image of the unseen Yahuah or El. El is the most High and only existence known to our doctrine. Yahusha was begotten from Yahuah (El) as with the properties of His Father. He had both the life within Him as well as both image and spirit. He was the celestial representative of El to the Host of heaven. As one would gaze upon Yahusha that one would gaze upon El and as that one who gazed upon Yahusha would speak to Yahusha that one would speak to El.

This is the great mystery hidden from men. As Yahusha (El's Son) became flesh He shed his image of substance into the flesh of His creation and became known to us as Jesus. El (Yahuah) did not create but El (Yahuah) gave life to His son's (Yahusha's) creation. The Apostle John tells us this mystery in His gospel's first verses. As Yehosha's flesh perished, He once again took His celestial image where He reigns today.

As you digest this you may then understand that Deuteronomy 32:8 hinges upon the celestial Yahusha which was many centuries before His first advent. As Yahusha, at this time, represented His father El in both visibility and speech it may very well have been Yahusha who is the basis of this argument. Could both be right without proper understanding?

Now all of this was designed to show you word usage. I used Yahusha in place of "The Word" or "Logos" or Jesus. or many other identifications of the same entity. I used Yahuah in conjunction with El to differentiate Father and Son. The entire argument now hinges upon whether one would accept the Jewish Christian doctrine or the Roman Christian doctrine or perhaps Gnostic doctrines or many other avenues of beliefs. If one is not in the same mindset then perhaps the Son of El is not even considered as being El but then again it becomes clear to the one who accepts El and His Son.

The same can be directed as to genocide by the Son of El in the OT literature. Is it genocide? First one must again be in the same mindset. Were there antediluvian people for the first 1600 years of creation? Were they all of the Adamic seed? Could any of them be from the procreation of the fallen ones or serpent seedlings? Were the genocides of the OT actually the war on innocent humans or the war on the corrupt seeds of the Satans?

I won't go into any of that but my point is that when man judges El (Yahuah) then that man/woman should be aware that perhaps there is more than his/her understanding. Are we so knowledgeable that we can judge El Elyon?

This resonates with truth and wisdom. We are right and we are wrong. We can only truly judge ourselves and not others. We all have one predecessor after all and it lies deep within our "memory" past present and future. The seed of Saturn resonates within my collective "memory". Whatever that means lol

a reply to: Shayo

most of what has been posted is not worth tryng to refute seeing when it comes down to it

1) it can't be proven or disproven the whole concept is highly opinionated at the source, of which has never been disclosed seeing the OP who was banned but is back as SerapisChrist has never linked any source material. He claims it came from the DSS (no Link) that the JB is the best Bible but no link to that opinion either.

2) none of us were there historically and trying to make something or defend something from undisclosed sources and ancient fragments of the DSS is impossible.

It will just end up being one persons opinion against another personas opinion and then becomes a shout out i.e. "I have the truth and you don't" Or "your all deceived Yahweh followers and The one true God is EL."

hierophant

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Religion is 100% opinion in every aspect not an ounce can be proven and never will be.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

You don't think that it is important that Jehovah is not El Elyon, but itis very iimportant. And that is not my opinion, that is also a fact and has been proven already in this thread several times so if younneed proof read it.

Congrats on musing or repeating a theology based on an existing book that conflicts with its teaching.

Brush up on the meaning of "proof", an existing word. And before you do, "fact" will be defined by the same dictionary.

Dividing god isn't going to do you any good, it's one.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

But you want to push your opinionated religion on the rest of us.

If you understood even an ounce of the NT you would not be doing what you are doing.

But then again people do the strangest things in the name of their religion.

a reply to: wisvol
Don't worry about what is good for me. I am not dividing God, I am pointing out the difference between two historically different Gods who were syncretized into one God. It's just true and only divisive people hate the truth.

a reply to: ChesterJohn
I understand the New Testament better than you ever will because I am not a conformist who follows the status quo, I actually listen to the facts of life and consider the religions that Christianity got it's idea's from. I don't believe it is a true story because it is pagan(virgin birth), Jewish Messianic and Greek and Persian ideas all wrapped up in one universal or Catholic religion. You take the bible and think you can get rid of the Catholicism but you can't. Christmas is a pagan holiday converted to Christianity to attract pagans and goes back to Nimrod. Easter is the name of a pagan goddess and both are the main pagan high holidays, the solstices. Every sun god since Tammuz has been born on December 25. You are just fooling yourself if you think you know the Bible better than me chief, but you can think it.

a reply to: SerapisChrist

I am not a conformist either.

But you "I understand NT better than you" will do nothing to win me or others to your view.

Who said I celebrate Christimas?

Who said I celebrate Easter?

You assume to much, I celebrate neither.

a reply to: Sassanid

I have always had an deep knowledge that there was more going on in the Bible than revealed. At times it seems like there were two different Gods in a battle of wills. First I noticed it was always God and lord God then the Bible made God seem Bipolar to the max at times. Like with Abraham going to sacrifice Issac then God's like Called.you bluff juuuust testing you and whole bunch of other things in the book. I'm with this Guy a whole lot has been washed over.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: SerapisChrist

I am not a conformist either.

But you "I understand NT better than you" will do nothing to win me or others to your view.

Who said I celebrate Christimas?

Who said I celebrate Easter?

You assume to much, I celebrate neither.

I don't care what holidays you celebrate but your bible comes from the Universal church or Catholic church. Catholic means universal and it's universal because of Serapis previously commented on fusion of the worlds faiths. He left out Egyptian Horus and Roman Mithras worship. But the point is the same church that produced this vast syncreticism produced the New Testament and put it with the Tanakh. Now you might not be a Catholic and good for you for not celebrating pagan holidays, I don't either because of the hypocrisy, not because I hate pagans. But the paganism is still in the New Testament in the virgin birth and other subtle ways.

So I think Serapis point was more that no matter your particular beliefs, the Universal church, not Christs disciples, produced the Bible. No matter how much you try and remove the Catholicism it's still a Catholic and NOT a Christian book. That might sound strange but Catholicism did produce the bible and left out many Gospels that didn't mesh with their desired religion that very well could be legitimate like the Gospel of Thomas, Philip and the shepherd of Hermas' and many more that have miraculously resurfaced thanks to the Christian Ethiopians who have a rich history of Judeo-Christianity free from Rabbinical Judaism and Catholicism's corruption, and a tendency to preserve texts that Athanasius would have had destroyed if he had the reach. The book of Enoch was preserved by the Ethiopians and Jude must have thought it scripture as he quotes from it with authority which means he believed in its legitimacy.

a reply to: wisvol

I've been reading some of your comments and have the following observations to make:

You are aggressive to anyone who steps outside of the mainstream Christian arena of thinking, which I find naive. Since when has common opinion been synonymous with truth. The foundation of mainstream Christianity is Catholicism which is the Universal church, because it combines the religious traditions of no less than 6 nations/cultures. They produced the Bible too, combining the New Testament with the Hebrew Tanakh.

You are not the least bit humble, and are insulting to anyone who disagrees with you. You can't debate you have to argue and when you are proven wrong you get beligerent. Wouldn't it be easier on the soul to just state your disagreement and move on? Why do you have to make Christianity seem like a haven for ignorance if you respect it, you should represent it as a humble man of patience and tolerance, ability to accept people's right to the truth about the history of religion doesn't have to be about you and your beliefs. Some people aren't comfortable taking it on faith and disect scripture searching for hidden truths, like a Berean, discovery of El existing WAY before Yahweh was first spoken of and worshipped by the Israelites is from the archeological excavations at Ugarit and it's a fact that El was worshipped in ancient Canaan before Yahweh. El was still being worshipped by Yahwists until the advent of Jewish monotheism when the two were basically just decided to be the same now. It was a new development, and the two were seperate Gods for a long, long time. If you applied yourself instead of arguing in favor of proven lies of old times and trying to keep alive that which is untrue, you could verify this for yourself. Of course you would have to lose the bias.

You support Yahweh's genocidal and infanticidal endeavors. You feel the Caananites slaughter was justified. Despite the fact that it has been admitted by Jews that this is a myth and didn't actually happen, you still believe it and are OK with worshipping a bastard like YHWH even though he is responsible for all the evil in the Old Testament, yes, Jews assign good and evil to God and passages in the Old Testament have Yahweh taking responsibility for ALL evil and good alike. He is evil, admittedly so.

a reply to: Mryhh

God made the world, the world has good and evil, deal with it.

God isn't the devil, the devil is god's guard dog: biting the timid and wagging its tail at familiar scents and walks approaching the house.

yhvh is elohim is adonai is allah is god is dieu is dios isn't the son of anything, that's why he is called "the father".

You would benefit from identifying the cause of and solving your anger, I said it before and it bears repeating.

Your comprehension of my religion and people is dangerously flawed.

a reply to: Mryhh

you and Serapischrist are the same person so why try and deceive us?

You believe what you want Similarities does not a pagan doctrine make.

May I make a suggestion. Go back through all the accounts names you made and see what it that keeps getting you banned, apologize repent of your errors and see if they will unlock it for you so we can all accept you for who you are and not have to deal with all your account names.

If they don't it is because you so blatantly violated their T&C so many times that you are no longer trustworthy not do it again.

With deep consideration in understanding Deuteronomy 32:8 I had to take into consideration that written Torah is not complete in understanding without oral Torah at its side. As Moses contributed to both Torah’s, he did not write all of both Torah’s. Moses took from many sources of tradition with many authors of those traditions and with many scribes at his disposal and compiled tradition into written Torah. Many centuries later the rabbi Judah the Prince did the same with oral Torah. With that in mind, and the advice of rabbi, I looked at oral Torah before coming to a conclusion of understanding Deuteronomy 32;8--

Yalkut ME’AM LO’EZ In “The Torah Anthology” is the most traditionally accepted oral Torah of those who accept oral Torah. Not all Jews do accept the oral Torah but in this case on this thread I thought it helpful to be fair minded and present the most revered oral tradition of the Hebrews.

Quote
Moses now begins to describe God’s special relationship with Israel. The “division” mentioned by the verse (Deuteronomy 32:8) refers to God’s scattering of Babylon’s inhabitants after they built the Tower of Babel. (See Genesis 11:1-9).

At that time, He divided the people into separate nations, granting each one their own land as a national heritage. Seventy nations were created, equaling the number of Jacob’s offspring who descended to Egypt (See Genesis 46:27.) Zohar (1,177a) relates that each nation was nurtured by an archangel.

When the world was divided among the nations, the Jewish nation was set aside and distinguished as God’s servants. Thus Zohar (1.195a) states that God divided the world into seventy portions and only revealed His Holy name to Israel, for they are his servants and His portion.
Unquote –

That is my last word on this subject as I see nothing but word play in uncertain understandings. As you will read one account and then another account there is word play that cannot be solved without the original literature. I have come to the conclusion that those in the days of Moses had no understanding of any sort of a Celestial Begotten entity named (Hebrew Yahusha) or (Greek Jesus), nor His preexistence with El who begat Him as a Son. All they understood was that there was one God of the Hebrews who was total spirit (whatever that means) and so holy that His name was forbidden to be bantered about.

Now most Christians are taught that El created both the celestial and terrestrial realms as we understand them today. According to the Apostle John of the NT that is not the case at all. El did not create the physicality as we understand it to exist. The Apostle John relates that His Begotten Son (The Word) created this universe and El gave it life with His Spirit. Read the following---

John 1:1-5
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

As you can see the Word was with El from the onset of this creation and it was the Word that created.

Now let us take a look at the Genesis account,

Gen 1:26-27
(26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Great debate here but understood by Christianity differently than rabbinic Judaic teachings. Here is what confirms the teachings of John. The word “Us” is understood as the “Word” who created this universe and His God El. Two entities? No not two because El is not an entity. El is a spirit (whatever that can be). Not the invisible unknowable El but His Begotten image of visibility called “The Word.”

Let us make man in our image (visibility) and likeness (Spirit). Who is the image? The Word is the image of El. And who is the likeness? The Likeness is El or Spirit of life.

The Apostle John teaches this same thing in his gospel. El did not create but YHWH did create. Who is YHWH? Is He not EL’s begotten image? Does not Moses teach in Genesis 1:26 that El has an image and spirit? Of course He does. And who is the image of El? Is it not the Creator as Apostle John calls Him “The Word?” Does this not teach that the Word is the celestial YHWH who created the heaven and earth?

Most are confused as to separate El and the creator YHWH. Both are the same and yet both are not to be understood. We cannot understand that which we cannot see, touch or smell. The only way we can comprehend YHWH was through His appearing to us as Yahusha (Jesus.) YHWH is our Creator God and El is His and our Most High God. The scriptures teach that at the end of the creation when all is destroyed YHWH (who is no longer the terrestrial Jesus) returns to El and they become one once more.

1Corinthians_15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You have now seen the great and confusing controversy of both Rabbinic Judaic thought and Christian Rabbinic thought. Nothing is settled in the minds of either just as it will never be agreed upon by the many factions of religion. Is the creator YHWH the most High El?

My opinions of course - By the way my opinion is that YHWH is the Word and Creator and that El is Most High God of all creations.