Is Conservative Ideology Finally Dead?

a reply to: ketsuko

Venezuela was in the middle of a revolution and even had groups trying to overthrow the government.

Greece, similar to the US, was overran by banking interests and ran in to the ground.

Not very good comparisons, in my opinion.

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: ketsuko

You on the left think of it as a top down problem of improving society as a whole through the law.

That's incorrect. The causes the Left tend to focus on is equal application of laws and recognition of rights for individuals that were previously oppressed. The Right, through laws, wish to suppress individual rights and wish to have the laws reflect their ideologies, including religious.

Thank you for proving you do not know what you are talking about. You're just regurgitating nonsense.

Which side was trying to fight for gay rights, abortion rights, police brutality and other rights that pertain to the individual?

Now ask yourself which side wishes to either suppress those rights, or fails to recognize that the issue needs to be addressed?

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: ketsuko

You on the left think of it as a top down problem of improving society as a whole through the law.

That's incorrect. The causes the Left tend to focus on is equal application of laws and recognition of rights for individuals that were previously oppressed. The Right, through laws, wish to suppress individual rights and wish to have the laws reflect their ideologies, including religious.

Thank you for proving you do not know what you are talking about. You're just regurgitating nonsense.

Which side was trying to fight for gay rights, abortion rights, police brutality and other rights that pertain to the individual?

Now ask yourself which side wishes to either suppress those rights, or fails to recognize that the issue needs to be addressed?

Again, you're just making ignorant accusations. There is a difference between what the federal government should control and what should be left to states and localities. I am, like I have said, fiscally conservative and moderate socially. I believe I reflect more of the modern conservative movement than the far-right base.

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

Bull#.

Modern conservatives, like Hillary Clinton, believe in rigging the game and true liberals/progressives want to level the playing field when it's obvious the game has been rigged. Outcomes are in the hands of individuals.

a reply to: Abysha

what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally

How can this be done without a totalitarian environment? Every person treated equally means total control of everything.
And the easiest way to do that is to take everything away.

Equality of opportunity lets each person find his or her own way, which is the only way to find who you are and what you've got.

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: EternalSolace

you keep saying that liberalism left unchecked is going to ruin the country or whatever your saying. as if liberals just want to see everything burn.

You're right in that I am essentially saying that if liberalism is left unchecked, it will ruin the country. I'm also stating that conservatism, if left unchecked, will ruin the country.

I'm sure that you can find a few ways that conservatism would be harmful if left unchecked.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

thats not true. liberals want fair taxation, you make more money you pay more taxes, you make less money you pay less taxes. no one is born equal, if conservatives wanted a leveled playing field everyone would be born the same, thats just not reality. a flat tax will never benefit the poor, but will always benefit the wealthy. but if you ony care about yourself and dont care about society as a whole, there's a name for that, its called psychopath.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

You don't you use the lack of bureaucracy to exploit your talents... if your talent involves making paper or shoes... who is trying to defeat your endeavor at every turn but those already established to crush competition? One only has to look at how that went for Detroit... if car manufacturers had their way as lobbied? The Telsa would have never touched pavement. This is exactly how what people call "the man" or establishment keep people down, impoverished working 40 plus in fast food and require food stamps to eat, because they can't afford college... or pay back the loan if they manage one. So it's not hey lets get/give hand outs, as opposition says it is in propaganda... it's allow people to have the same opportunities to build their dreams.

What do you think the founder of soft soap now Unilever or Musk would be doing right now if lobbies got their way? What is occurring right now, is the established corporations want monopolies, block any and every opportunity they can except as a cog in their machine, and when you're a cog they dictate your life not you... one cut back away from the socialist programs people claim to hate... there is a corporate monopoly in the US it wants workers of all education levels... so the broken system works great for them as that's what they've lobbied for decade after decade... until they got made people giving them all the rights but even more fiscal might than we the people could ever have.

This greed and unconcern for the worker, is why unions were formed, OSHA was established... etc etc why because someone can replace you at the drop of a hat. Why yes, take it all strip mine the planet on our back while we struggle better keep that dream alive because realistically it isnt happening.

So thats what leveling the field is all about ok? It's not hand outs, like some equate to welfare. You know the living wage some countries give free gas etc.? That's from running surplus... economy so damn good it starts paying you back, like putting solar on your house and getting a check from the power company. Gotta remove the stranglehold first though.

The fight is not what people think or assume it is... hopefully this clears some of it up?

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

Bull#.

Modern conservatives, like Hillary Clinton, believe in rigging the game and true liberals/progressives want to level the playing field when it's obvious the game has been rigged. Outcomes are in the hands of individuals.

See, this is the end of the debate. If you're going to continue to spout this nonsensical rhetoric, I am not going to waste my time trying to have intellectual discourse with you.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

Again, you're just making ignorant accusations. There is a difference between what the federal government should control and what should be left to states and localities.

State and federal authority was not part of the discussion I was addressing.

Also, I did not make accusations. There is a track record we can look at to validate my claim.

I am, like I have said, fiscally conservative and moderate socially

Congrats.

I believe I reflect more of the modern conservative movement than the far-right base.

The modern conservative movement is trending towards fascist, Tea Party-like extremism in which rights are only inherent if they reflect the will of the majority.

I'd be willing to bet you align better with the Goldwater Conservatives.

originally posted by: vjr1113
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

thats not true. liberals want fair taxation, you make more money you pay more taxes, you make less money you pay less taxes. no one is born equal, if conservatives wanted a leveled playing field everyone would be born the same, thats just not reality. a flat tax will never benefit the poor, but will always benefit the wealthy. but if you ony care about yourself and dont care about society as a whole, there's a name for that, its called psychopath.

Please educate yourself before you waste people's time with this fluff. Do you even truly understand the difference between liberal and conservative political and economic philosophies?

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

Bull#.

Modern conservatives, like Hillary Clinton, believe in rigging the game and true liberals/progressives want to level the playing field when it's obvious the game has been rigged. Outcomes are in the hands of individuals.

See, this is the end of the debate. If you're going to continue to spout this nonsensical rhetoric, I am not going to waste my time trying to have intellectual discourse with you.

What rhetoric? I've been calling Hillary a Lite-Republican for some time.

At the last debate, Sanders tried to get her to talk about her progressive credentials and she couldn't do it. She aligns better with the Republicans than a true progressive or Democrat Socialist.

If you don't want to debate, that's fine, but at least put some effort in to debunking my claims before calling it quits.

a reply to: vjr1113

The accident rate at work was falling, that is decreasing, before the gov safety regulations.

Since the work place has been officially safe, the accident rate has stayed the same.

Same for poverty. Poverty decreased until the 1960's. Since Welfare started the poverty rate has gone up.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: ExNihiloRed

Again, you're just making ignorant accusations. There is a difference between what the federal government should control and what should be left to states and localities.

State and federal authority was not part of the discussion I was addressing.

Also, I did not make accusations. There is a track record we can look at to validate my claim.

I am, like I have said, fiscally conservative and moderate socially

Congrats.

I believe I reflect more of the modern conservative movement than the far-right base.

The modern conservative movement is trending towards fascist, Tea Party-like extremism in which rights are only inherent if they reflect the will of the majority.

I'd be willing to bet you align better with the Goldwater Conservatives.

Come on. Tea party is by far a minority. State vs federal authority is an underlying principle of liberal vs conservative principles!!

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

I can try that too:

Conservatives believe in "facilitating monopolies" and Liberals believe in "regulating a balanced market to ensure longevity and healthy competition with varied revenues".

Anybody can make blanket statements.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: ExNihiloRed

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Abysha

Not really.

You cannot have any individual liberty in a society forced to be perfectly equal in its outcomes. We are all of us different with different talents, different hopes and dreams, different aspirations. Why should I allow myself to be forced into a predetermined societal mold of the government's making in order to be exactly like everyone else and not make any feel bad because I have talents they don't? Why should I suffer and possibly eventually break in silence attempting to be able to do those things the societal mold demands I ought in order to be like everyone else and equal?

And if I fail, what then? Such societies inevitably discard the misfits.

I don't want to live in your enforced equality Utopia. I am not made to be part of the world of The Giver or 1984 or Brave New World. There is a reason why those are dystopias.

I think we both have two separate definitions of "liberty" and two separate definitions of "equality".

The equality you fear is some sort of fictional scenario where you are not allowed to excel in deference to those less skilled. However, this has nothing to do with what I think of when I say "equality". To me, it means every person is treated equally and given the same opportunities. Success does not happen in a vacuum. Every wealthy person in our nation has achieved what they have because of the system in which we all participate in and support. This means they cannot discriminate. This means they must follow the rules. If they don't like it, they need to gain their success elsewhere, where they can make their fortune without the help of an infrastructure, utilities, or an established economy. That person can go be Queen or King of the lone island they lord over.

As far as those movies all depicting dystopias for a reason, you are correct. That reason is because they are fiction novels, written by people who share your views.

Conservative believe in "Equal Opportunity" and Liberals believe in "Equal Outcome"

Bull#.

Modern conservatives, like Hillary Clinton, believe in rigging the game and true liberals/progressives want to level the playing field when it's obvious the game has been rigged. Outcomes are in the hands of individuals.

See, this is the end of the debate. If you're going to continue to spout this nonsensical rhetoric, I am not going to waste my time trying to have intellectual discourse with you.

What rhetoric? I've been calling Hillary a Lite-Republican for some time.

At the last debate, Sanders tried to get her to talk about he progressive credentials and she couldn't do it. She aligns better with the Republicans than a true progressive or Democrat Socialist.

If you don't want to debate, that's fine, but at least put some effort in to debunking my claims before calling it quits.

Seriously? Hillary who wants big government and universal healthcare is a conservative? Ignorance is bliss I guess.

a reply to: ExNihiloRed

yes i understand why i like a progressive tax system and why i dont want a flat tax, i understand income inequality and i want to make society as a whole better instead of just wanting to benefit the super wealthy as much as possible.

We have very few conservatives left in this country ... neocons a plenty though.

The greatest distinction between neocons and everyone else (liberal is not the opposite) is that a neocon only sees things as extremes, absolute dichotomy.

And their way is always the only way.

a reply to: ketsuko

So dramatic! Though your terms suit me just fine, the world would be better without people like you.