Ancient Babylonians Tracked Jupiter With Calculus

Oh, those pesky Babylonians are at it again, or were at it rather. The ancient people still have a lot to teach about themselves and just how scientifically aware they really were. Here we have yet another example of pushing further back in time our understanding of just how advanced our ancient ancestors were and one wonders what else they were involved in that we haven't discovered yet.

Ancient Babylonians Tracked Jupiter With Calculus

Ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablet text A provided essential clues to understanding four other tablets numbered text B to text E.

The earliest known examples of mathematical and geometric astronomy have been identified in a series of ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets.

An analysis of the tablets, reported in the journal Science, reveals ancient Babylonians were able to calculate the position of Jupiter using geometric techniques previously believed to have been first used some 1,400 years later in 14th century Europe.

“These texts are the earliest evidence we have from antiquity of mathematical astronomy,” said the study’s author Dr Mathieu Ossendrijver, a historian on Babylonian astronomy with the Humboldt University in Berlin.The earliest known examples of mathematical and geometric astronomy have been identified in a series of ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets.

An analysis of the tablets, reported in the journal Science, reveals ancient Babylonians were able to calculate the position of Jupiter using geometric techniques previously believed to have been first used some 1,400 years later in 14th century Europe.

“These texts are the earliest evidence we have from antiquity of mathematical astronomy,” said the study’s author Dr Mathieu Ossendrijver, a historian on Babylonian astronomy with the Humboldt University in Berlin.

For some of us on the Fringe edge are not surprised, The more we dig the better our understanding of just how intelligent many ancient civilizations truly were and how in depth their understanding of how the celestial bodies move among the heavens. To think at one time we were forced to believe the Earth was the center of the universe and to believe otherwise was punishable by death.

These tablets redefine our history books as the origins of calculus are generally traced back to the Middle Ages when people began using geometry to calculate velocity by plotting the position of an object against time.

“This is highly surprising. No-one expected to find something like this in antiquity,” Dr Ossendrijver said.

“While ancient Greeks used geometrical figures to describe configurations in physical space, centuries earlier these Babylonian tablets used geometry in an abstract sense to define time and velocity.”

They had a lot of time on their hands to sit up and watch, probably protecting the flocks and herds of animals from predators. The early predawn sky is darkest, the most stable for viewing, the planets are the brightest objects which move differently than other stars, the moon and sun.

“We’re not really sure why the Babylonians were so interested in the motion of the planet Jupiter, but one possible explanation is that Jupiter was associated with Marduk the supreme god of Babylon,” Dr Ossendrijver said.

Because they were bored, it was brightest and it moved.

originally posted by: intrptr

probably protecting the flocks and herds of animals from predators.

It was the priesthood who were astronomers

originally posted by: intrptr
Because they were bored, it was brightest and it moved.

No, it was because Jupiter represented their chief deity. It wasn't the brightest, of the five planets that they knew existed, Venus was much brighter and it represented the Goddess Inanna

You live next to a river. At night, people fish on boats with oil lamps. All you seen a moving light and know someone is there. You look up at the night sky, and like the reflection of moonlight on the river, you see millions of tiny dots. That leads to an association with the galaxy as some kind of heavenly river. Then those moving points of light which are the planets must then be important people. So they are given names.

The movement of the stars throughout the year indicates when there are going to be floods, the best time to plant crops, the best times to harvest grain. So it's important someone keeps track of all this. It's also a good idea to have a lookout post in the center of the city. That's got to be high up, and the advantage is that it also gives a great vantage point of the sky above all the smoke from the cooking fires. These places are really important, so they need on-site caretakers, who also must be respected. So you get priests to do the job. They keep a lookout for anything such as volanic ash clouds, meteorites (precious metals), comets, forest fires, floods and just about anything else. In case of invasion or flood, a stepped pyramid is a great defensive measure.

Keeping track of time requires a calendar, and once you have a calendar, you can make notes, and then make predictions of things like solar and lunar eclipses.

a reply to: SLAYER69

It wasn't exactly Calculus.

It was a graphical method of calculating using the area of a Trapezoid.

True Calculus calculates the area under a curve.

The Sumerians, and the Babylonians after them, had great difficulty with some mathematics due to their Sexagesimal (base 60) counting system. This is why they chose multiples of twelve for so many of their numerical systems. It is also why graphical solutions to mathematical problems made sense.

If the Nephilim/'mighty ones of old' had six fingers on each hand (as some traditions hold) and they were pivotal in Sumerian society, then this would also be a reason for them to choose this number system.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: SLAYER69

If the Nephilim/'mighty ones of old' had six fingers on each hand (as some traditions hold) and they were pivotal in Sumerian society, then this would also be a reason for them to choose this number system.

The Nephilim feature in a book which wasn't even written when the Chaldeans were star gazing. And there are no Mesopotamian myths about people with six fingers.

There are Mesopotamian medical records, most notably the šumma izbu (reject births), dating back to the First Babylonian Dynasty — Amorite Dynasty 1894–1595 BC from which the following is copied

“If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the right hand—poverty will seize the house of the man.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the left hand—[the mother] is endowed with prosperity; [the man’s] adversary will die.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers each on its right and left hands—the descendants [of the house] will be poverty-stricken.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right and left feet—the descendants of that house will be scattered.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right foot—[the child] is endowed with worrying.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its left foot—[the child] is endowed with [ … ]. If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers [and toes] on each of its right and left hands and right and left feet—the land will live undisturbed.”

Note, that there is no mention made at all of Nephilim, men of reknown, or anything else which would indicate mythology or a group that would not even exist for another thousand years

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: SLAYER69

If the Nephilim/'mighty ones of old' had six fingers on each hand (as some traditions hold) and they were pivotal in Sumerian society, then this would also be a reason for them to choose this number system.

The Nephilim feature in a book which wasn't even written when the Chaldeans were star gazing. And there are no Mesopotamian myths about people with six fingers.

There are Mesopotamian medical records, most notably the šumma izbu (reject births), dating back to the First Babylonian Dynasty — Amorite Dynasty 1894–1595 BC from which the following is copied

“If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the right hand—poverty will seize the house of the man.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers on the left hand—[the mother] is endowed with prosperity; [the man’s] adversary will die.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers each on its right and left hands—the descendants [of the house] will be poverty-stricken.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right and left feet—the descendants of that house will be scattered.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its right foot—[the child] is endowed with worrying.
If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six toes on its left foot—[the child] is endowed with [ … ]. If a woman gives birth, and [the child] has six fingers [and toes] on each of its right and left hands and right and left feet—the land will live undisturbed.”

Note, that there is no mention made at all of Nephilim, men of reknown, or anything else which would indicate mythology or a group that would not even exist for another thousand years

Thanks, I was going from Hebrew sources, which many deny relate details before Moses. I believe that they do, but largely from the nature of their own accounts.

But I have learned something new!

originally posted by: chr0naut
Thanks, I was going from Hebrew sources, which many deny relate details before Moses. I believe that they do,

I guess that depends on whether you believe in talking snakes or not

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: chr0naut
Thanks, I was going from Hebrew sources, which many deny relate details before Moses. I believe that they do,

I guess that depends on whether you believe in talking snakes or not

I don't believe in talking snakes (for one, I suspect that they have inadequate laryngial musculature for phonation, nature is efficient like that).

But Nachash means 'shining one' and a talking spiritual being seems to me to be an acceptable concept.

That Satan is associated with a serpent or dragon may be entirely metaphoric or may be due to "possession" of the animal (as previously suggested).

Lots of cultures have malign talking dragons. It seems deeply ingrained.

Doesn't surprise given their brain size wasn't too different to brain size today. More interested in why they were tracking jupiter in the sky. Was astrology yesteryears science, why does interest in planets seem to be everywhere in ancient societies.

That Satan is associated with a serpent or dragon may be entirely metaphoric or may be due to "possession" of the animal (as previously suggested).

I think it has a lot more to do with stealing the concepts of your religion from the Civilisations around you, especially ones which enslave you, who use a dragon as the symbol of their Chief deity. SA.AN is a Mesopotamian term which means "Opposed/Equal to heaven/God"

Lots of cultures have malign talking dragons. It seems deeply ingrained.

It spread from Babylon around 1600BCE, when the Hittites conquered the city, (The first appearence of a Dragon in that culture dates to around 2500BCE which is the same time as contact with the Harappan culture began under Sargon the Great.) The Hittites took the cult statue of Bel Marduk home with them and started worshipping it. The worship included a reading of the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation Epic in which Tiamat is introduced. From Anatolia it spread to Palestine, where St George was later added to the story and where his tomb was located. From Palestine, to Greece, then Rome, etc etc
Its what happens when you have one civilisation claiming that their God can defeat lions and a neighbouring culture saying "Wait til you see what our God can defeat"
Its still being used for that purpose today, you know, only God can defeat the Great Red dragon, well unless you're counting Will Graham.

Its not a case of many cultures inventing dragons, just of one great story used to glorify your God jumping from culture to culture

originally posted by: glend
Doesn't surprise given their brain size wasn't too different to brain size today. .

Their brain size was exactly the same as ours today, we are exactly the same species

More interested in why they were tracking jupiter in the sky. Was astrology yesteryears science, why does interest in planets seem to be everywhere in ancient societies.

Astrology started for the purpose of foretelling Omens and time keeping.

a reply to: Marduk
You forgot to bring the East Asians in on it.

Harte

originally posted by: Marduk

That Satan is associated with a serpent or dragon may be entirely metaphoric or may be due to "possession" of the animal (as previously suggested).

I think it has a lot more to do with stealing the concepts of your religion from the Civilisations around you, especially ones which enslave you, who use a dragon as the symbol of their Chief deity. SA.AN is a Mesopotamian term which means "Opposed/Equal to heaven/God"

Lots of cultures have malign talking dragons. It seems deeply ingrained.

It spread from Babylon around 1600BCE, when the Hittites conquered the city, (The first appearence of a Dragon in that culture dates to around 2500BCE which is the same time as contact with the Harappan culture began under Sargon the Great.) The Hittites took the cult statue of Bel Marduk home with them and started worshipping it. The worship included a reading of the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation Epic in which Tiamat is introduced. From Anatolia it spread to Palestine, where St George was later added to the story and where his tomb was located. From Palestine, to Greece, then Rome, etc etc
Its what happens when you have one civilisation claiming that their God can defeat lions and a neighbouring culture saying "Wait til you see what our God can defeat"
Its still being used for that purpose today, you know, only God can defeat the Great Red dragon, well unless you're counting Will Graham.

Its not a case of many cultures inventing dragons, just of one great story used to glorify your God jumping from culture to culture

originally posted by: glend
Doesn't surprise given their brain size wasn't too different to brain size today. .

Their brain size was exactly the same as ours today, we are exactly the same species

More interested in why they were tracking jupiter in the sky. Was astrology yesteryears science, why does interest in planets seem to be everywhere in ancient societies.

Astrology started for the purpose of foretelling Omens and time keeping.

It could be argued that the Vedas document in poetry, concepts that had become traditional verbal traditions. The Rig Veda, which some have suggested dates from 1700 BC speaks of the serpent or dragon, Vritra, the personification of drought and adversity.

It could be from transference of legends between the cultures but there is significant enough difference between the vedic descriptions of gods and their exploits and Ugarit pantheon and their exploits to make that not very likely.

a reply to: chr0naut
Did you see him mention the Harappan Culture?

Harte

originally posted by: chr0naut

It could be argued that the Vedas document in poetry, concepts that had become traditional verbal traditions. The Rig Veda, which some have suggested dates from 1700 BC speaks of the serpent or dragon, Vritra, the personification of drought and adversity.

It could be from transference of legends between the cultures but there is significant enough difference between the vedic descriptions of gods and their exploits and Ugarit pantheon and their exploits to make that not very likely.

Vritra seems more like a giant snake to me, from a country that had giant snakes that's not very surprising.
A more direct comparison can be made between Bel Marduk and Harappan Rudra (who became Shiva) and Tiamat and the Makara. Tiamat and the Makara were both sea monsters and Bel Marduk and Rudra. both traditionally armed with tridents. Tridents are an oceanic weapon for attacking large ocean creatures

Religions tend to keep the bits from other cultures that they like and dump the rest, so you won't find significant similarities

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: chr0naut
Did you see him mention the Harappan Culture?

Harte

Yes, I did, which was why I qualified it by mentioning the differences between the Vedic pantheon and the Ugarit pantheon as a possible indicator of two separate traditions.

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: chr0naut

It could be argued that the Vedas document in poetry, concepts that had become traditional verbal traditions. The Rig Veda, which some have suggested dates from 1700 BC speaks of the serpent or dragon, Vritra, the personification of drought and adversity.

It could be from transference of legends between the cultures but there is significant enough difference between the vedic descriptions of gods and their exploits and Ugarit pantheon and their exploits to make that not very likely.

Vritra seems more like a giant snake to me, from a country that had giant snakes that's not very surprising.
A more direct comparison can be made between Bel Marduk and Harappan Rudra (who became Shiva) and Tiamat and the Makara. Tiamat and the Makara were both sea monsters and Bel Marduk and Rudra. both traditionally armed with tridents. Tridents are an oceanic weapon for attacking large ocean creatures

Religions tend to keep the bits from other cultures that they like and dump the rest, so you won't find significant similarities

So, could the dragon/serpent concept actually be an import from the Indus Valley rather than an export from Sargon's Akkad?

“I discovered that they describe the motion of Jupiter as a velocity, the number of degrees it moves across the sky in a day,” Dr Ossendrijver said. “If you plot the velocity of Jupiter against time, you get a creeping curve which looks like a rectangle with a slanted top — that’s the trapezoid.”

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Harte
a reply to: chr0naut
Did you see him mention the Harappan Culture?

Harte

Yes, I did, which was why I qualified it by mentioning the differences between the Vedic pantheon and the Ugarit pantheon as a possible indicator of two separate traditions.

Ugarit existed too late in the day to be relevant, try Eninkimar

originally posted by: chr0naut
So, could the dragon/serpent concept actually be an import from the Indus Valley rather than an export from Sargon's Akkad?

Totally, the oldest Dragon stories come from Korea, then spread to China (Then India) and Japan. All the oldest dragons are actually sea monsters. The word dragon was invented by the Greeks, so before they were around, no dragons. Just monsters

a reply to: SLAYER69

its sad that these things surprise us, that we have gotten so comfortable with assuming that our ancestors were so much dumber then us. especially considering things like this show how wrong that is.