What doesn't kill you... doesn't make you stronger.

originally posted by: HUMBLEONE
It is my view that adversity increases entropy. It seems to me that it should be our business to minimize entropy and thereby extend the operating range of the assigned bio-mechanical machine.

I may be wrong, but from my reading about the science behind the term Entropy, it seemed to be the opposite of what you'd think. In the past, entropy implied to me a system is collapsing into chaos. It's losing its integrity. BUT the scientific term isn't that at all, or doesn't seem to be. Its definition is the more uniform the system then the more entropy it has. Uniformity is essentially the loss of information. Instead of bunches of patterned chaos serving as information nodes, a system under heavy entropy is more like a featureless blankness.

So when you say "minimize entropy" what you're actually saying is either preserve information or, worst case, cause complete chaos.

Imagine a cup of hot coffee. At first it has low entropy. It has a lot of kinetic energy and it's very hot to the touch. If you look closely, you'd see lots of turbulence. If the coffee is hot enough, you'll actually see steam. With time, entropy increases and it cools. Soon, it'll be at room temperature and reach peak entropy. No more will it be hot. Essentially its kinetic energy has become "featureless" with the surrounding environment. It is as though the information which represented it is dispersed.

I've always felt we'll--more and more--engineer our body and our planet and everything with the intention of reducing chaos in our lives. But I've also felt this cause could potentially lead to a stale existence. Like the cup of coffee we'll cool and become luke warm. Endless reruns. It has made me ask a few times if ultra advanced alien civilizations regress or live non-real lives to combat the boredom. They SEEK adversity!

Still if we're always exploring unknown domains then we should find plenty of anti-entropy. Yet the more we discover and the less there's to discover then the more and more we're going to cool like hte coffee. At some point we might intentionally and desperately put ourselves on a burner and deprive ourselves of common sense for a change.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: LittleByLittle

But your direction feels dangerous here because... if we can just heal, then it's ok to just let it break? Like, "oh, now that we can treat this broken bone and make it better then it's totally ok to keep on breaking it, cause it'll just get fixed."

This is kind of the inadvertent, underlying theme that runs through those trains of thought. In the end, we shouldn't even be getting to the breaking point- and that's what I mentioned earlier in the thread when I talked about the difference between treating symptoms... and preventing those symptoms from ever arising.

Just because we can take medication for the pain, it doesn't mean we should subject ourselves to pain or accept a painful state... does that make it clearer? So do we just continue to treat ourselves, or should we literally change our environment so that we prevent those symptoms from ever forming altogether?

Something about your post triggered this response.

.

From my point of view every living cell in your body is in itself both a living organism and a quantum computer but at the same time a tool you are temporarily connected to. Just because humanity create science that can repair something do not mean it is ok to cause suffering and a soul should be unwise enough to break the biological living machine it is infused in.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: geezlouise

Strong people die all the time. Giving up the ghost before you are dead though? Seems a little wasteful, given that there will always be someone having a worse day than you are, but enjoying themselves immensely nonetheless. Now, I might never have met that person, the one who is having a worse day than you, but enjoying themselves anyway, but I know that they exist, because statistically, they must.

Look at what it is possible to do, even with a broken body! Hawking, had his mobility, from the ability to walk, to the ability to communicate verbally stolen from him by a quirk of genetics. He also stuck the foot of his mind, into the butt of the universe and helped shape our understanding as a species, of the fundamentals of how our universe goes together.

He is an off the top of my head example, from the field in which I am most interested. Look into sports, politics, any sphere of life, and you will find someone overcoming limitations placed upon them by any number of things, from the code in their DNA to war wounds, from cancer to knife blades.

It is not that giving up makes a person weak. It just makes them dead much faster than they would be otherwise, in my experience. Strength and surviving are products of one another, a self sustaining system, which, barring interference from sources of immediate lethal harm, like bullets, bombs and the like, promotes the growth of both ones strength, and ones ability to survive. Both start, and end, in the mind.

Indeed it's a common phrase: "Necessity is hte mother of invention" Sorry if I phrased it wrongly. It does seem those who have less appreciate what they have more and work harder to get more. We have a long history of reocgnizing what a spoiled child is and I don't think we have much trouble recognizing it even today despite its prevalence.

Sometimes I've wondered what would happen if humans of this world were placed in a much more painless world, one where no natural disasters occurred and no diseases or illnesses existed and so on. The food and water would heal our bodies and be always available where we wanted it. We'd live several times longer. Everything we wanted would be provided. Now it seems counter-intuitive, but this perfect place might actually kill us! How??? We evolved on a world with disaster and pestilence and scarce resources. That's what we're used to. if placed on a world without those things, we're like a creature without food or water. Woe is me!

originally posted by: jonnywhite

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: geezlouise

Strong people die all the time. Giving up the ghost before you are dead though? Seems a little wasteful, given that there will always be someone having a worse day than you are, but enjoying themselves immensely nonetheless. Now, I might never have met that person, the one who is having a worse day than you, but enjoying themselves anyway, but I know that they exist, because statistically, they must.

Look at what it is possible to do, even with a broken body! Hawking, had his mobility, from the ability to walk, to the ability to communicate verbally stolen from him by a quirk of genetics. He also stuck the foot of his mind, into the butt of the universe and helped shape our understanding as a species, of the fundamentals of how our universe goes together.

He is an off the top of my head example, from the field in which I am most interested. Look into sports, politics, any sphere of life, and you will find someone overcoming limitations placed upon them by any number of things, from the code in their DNA to war wounds, from cancer to knife blades.

It is not that giving up makes a person weak. It just makes them dead much faster than they would be otherwise, in my experience. Strength and surviving are products of one another, a self sustaining system, which, barring interference from sources of immediate lethal harm, like bullets, bombs and the like, promotes the growth of both ones strength, and ones ability to survive. Both start, and end, in the mind.

Indeed it's a common phrase: "Necessity is hte mother of invention" Sorry if I phrased it wrongly. It does seem those who have less appreciate what they have more and work harder to get more. We have a long history of reocgnizing what a spoiled child is and I don't think we have much trouble recognizing it even today despite its prevalence.

Sometimes I've wondered what would happen if humans of this world were placed in a much more painless world, one where no natural disasters occurred and no diseases or illnesses existed and so on. The food and water would heal our bodies and be always available where we wanted it. We'd live several times longer. Everything we wanted would be provided. Now it seems counter-intuitive, but this perfect place might actually kill us! How??? We evolved on a world with disaster and pestilence and scarce resources. That's what we're used to. if placed on a world without those things, we're like a creature without food or water. Woe is me!

How would we be killed if there is nothing to kill us ? Do you mean 'kill us' in a metaphoric way, as in "we would be bored to death" ?

a reply to: gosseyn
Possibly. I don't want to speculate what would kill us. I just wanted to bring up the idea of a heavenly place being inhospitable to us. Heavenly places are so popular in movies and religion, but none of that's real. What would it be like in reality? I guess nobody knows, me included.

Maybe my thinking also stems from stories I rad growing up. I remember a fairy tale about a boy who's granted entrance into Eden, or otherwise a place of magic and eternal life. He's only told there's one thing he CAN'T do and that's kiss a girl. He thinks it's no trouble at all and is thrilled at first. But eventually, like river flows to the sea, he finds himself looking at her sleeping by a tree and cannot resist the urge to kiss her. He does and he's henceforth sent away, prohibited from ever returning.

originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: gosseyn
Possibly. I don't want to speculate what would kill us. But it wouldn't be the world itself, since it's a calm place of unlimited abundance.

There have been many speculations on that kind of world in science-fiction. The things is : as humans, we have human qualities that other animals don't have, and we are able to create challenges for ourselves. The pursuit of knowledge for example. Even in the perfect world that you describe, we would we still want to explore, etc..

the stress factor who knows, well you'd coup with future stress better as you'd be use to having a lot of stress if you've been through similiar situations.

But I disagree.

what doesn't kill you does make you stronger in a lot of ways. The ideal situation is to try and learn from others mistakes. But that rarely happens and or doesn't provide the same effect you need in the real world. In the real world you must experience the challenges of life in order to grow and become wise.

Ya life is filled with pain. Everywhere you turn there's pain and heart ache, it's everywhere that you go? hmmmm madonna, Vogue? ha ha . I heard a saying that goes: anyone who told you life was gonna be easy or fair lied. It's true, there's endless pain that comes about in life.

I also heard a saying that goes: "don't wish life was gonna be easier, wish you were better". Which is true. Life most likely isn't gonna get easier.

but I don't know. But that saying has more to do with: learning from your mistakes ... than anything else.

a reply to: geezlouise

The parable does seem dubious. But in its context it is meaningful.

The man who wrote it was ill, in chronic pain, near blind and exhausted, but while still afflicted with all this, he said "Yes" to life. Even with the ills of the body, whether it is a lifetime of stress, disease, or pain, we acquire the strength to continue.

Diseases and stress will kill you. But in the adventure of philosophy, of which he wrote of himself as a warrior and truth as a woman, no injury or damage to our beliefs or faith along that path can kill us, it only makes us stronger. The strength he speaks of is a mental one.

originally posted by: geezlouise

originally posted by: AceWombat04
It's just meat and ion channels.

I really like your meat and ion channels.

Also I'd like to thank you all for your amazing contributions. I'm feeling very loving. I love you all. Thank you.

Right on. Though I don't know if I contributed to such warm feelings personally lol. Always my intent but I find my intentions are not always successfully conveyed, especially online.

I offer as compromise if any disagreement remains a quote from the Batman movie. "Whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger."

Peace.

Yes, that is another aspect to it. The other is your mind, of course, and i bilieve it doesn't make it stronger either. I usually say/think "What doesn't kill you, makes you less human" (So it actually does kill you in a way. Just slowly and indirectly).

Dissapointment after dissapointment can't really make you stronger. It will make you either more evil or more discouraged. Or both. At least that's what happens most of the time. It will take away the pleasure of being alive and if you don't have that, there is no way you could be strong. Be it physically or mentally.

a reply to: jonnywhite

People seek stimulation, it's natural. In fact, it's one of my goals to become so bored and under stimulated that I feel daring enough to go exploring and seek out to re-stimulate myself once again. But there is such a thing as being over-stimulated and I'm pretty sure I have experienced a series of over-stimulations, and it affected my body in a most negative way. It was NOT the normal daily stress of life that did this to me... I think that's important to note. There's a little bit extra stuff going on.

Someone once explained PTSD in this way and it stuck with me:

-An average person can be likened to an empty glass and as the day goes on the glass fills up with water. The water represents normal daily stressors.

-A person with PTSD can be likened to an already half full glass, or even a full glass of water. As the day goes on, the glass overflows. The water represents normal daily stressors.

There's this other popular evil idea that people have... about how great progress rests on the shoulders of trauma. This is also false. For one, ANY progress is good progress, no matter how slow it is. And secondly, MANY PEOPLE ARE TRAUMATIZED and crippled by it, most people are. The statistics are there. So, abusing the sh-t out of people will NOT turn out geniuses or great ideas. It just f-cking doesn't. If it did, we'd ALL BE TALENTED GENIUS MOFOS, cause life is kind of traumatizing in and of itself... and lots of people experience pain and suffering, so where are all the f-cking Einsteins if this be the case?

So no, who I am, and what I am, has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I EXPERIENCED. I am fully detached from my experiences, they do NOT DEFINE ME and they did not "make" me or "build" me into what I am today. I will not give credit to those evils in this fashion... but I see lots of other people do it all the time and I gotta say, it makes me really sad. Because it appears to me that it, too, inadvertently excuses the evil experiences and even tolerates those evils (by saying, "well I wouldn't be who I am today and I am great and awesome so Thank You Bad Experiences for who I am today" for example). The truth is, what happens to us does NOT define who we are. We are born with whatever we're born with, and then we make do.

There ARE different forms of stress, as I pointed out on the FIRST PAGE of this thread, and as someone else pointed out here... ty ily for the reinforcement. And I understand how our muscles work, which also aligns and parallels with the light stimulation that I just talked about- because you can actually really hurt yourself if you don't take care of yourself or when you push yourself too hard (if you over-stimulate yourself). The damage done can be irreparable.

And I love the poster who talks about luck. Cause Tech, it's called the survival instinct. And we all got it.

And it's not all black and white, either, I see that. But I think I still stand firm in my belief that... most of the time:

What doesn't kill you doesn't make you stronger!

And I can accept that terrible things have happened and nothing good comes from it.
This is reality to me and I'm not moping, or whining about it. I'm just stating facts.
What happened to me will NEVER BE OK. That's all, fact. And I do accept it.

But remember, my body literally failed me upon facing the truth, so perhaps it is not in your best interest to accept and look at the truth. It could be dangerous, and it can hurt you. So take care of yourself, and take it slow. If I dare suggest, by taking baby steps into the light.

originally posted by: mkpetrov
Dissapointment after dissapointment can't really make you stronger. It will make you either more evil or more discouraged. Or both. At least that's what happens most of the time. It will take away the pleasure of being alive and if you don't have that, there is no way you could be strong. Be it physically or mentally.

This is a matter of choice, not a given.

a reply to: geezlouise

To your water-in-the-glass analogy, I present the following:



It doesn't matter how full or empty it is. Set it down or you will become blinded by the weight of the glass, regardless of what is in it.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: jonnywhitePeople seek stimulation, it's natural. In fact, it's one of my goals to become so bored and under stimulated that I feel daring enough to go exploring and seek out to re-stimulate myself once again. But there is such a thing as being over-stimulated and I'm pretty sure I have experienced a series of over-stimulations, and it affected my body in a most negative way. It was NOT the normal daily stress of life that did this to me... I think that's important to note. There's a little bit extra stuff going on.

Sorry for singling out one part of your post, but I want to share how I feel about it. I think some stress in life is good for us. Being too sheltered or inactive leads to bad health. Study after study supports this view. We know sedentary lifestyles are unhealthy. So it's possible if you're in a constant state of under-stimulation you're actually hurting yourself. You might be making it harder to re-stimulate. I know we humans are things of habit. If we get stuck in a pattern of unhealthy habits then it's that much harder to make healthy ones. If a person falls down they need to get back up, not just to succeed, but to prevent themselves from falling into ruin.

There's such a thing as having too much stress or too little. I agree with that. Maybe that's the source of all the confusion in this thread. Some people are talking up stress and some are talking it down. But is anybody willing to admit some is ok while too little or too much is bad?

And I understand some people are sensitive to stimulation or crowds (or anything). Some people are extra sensitive to hot/cold, so ice cream or hot coffee might not be an option. Those with PTSD are sensitive. I read about a dog which was in Iraq and came home with PTSD. It was a dog trained to find explosives, I think. It was afraid of loud sounds and entering new places. It was explained how they were trying to treat it.

I'll give an example of some healthy stress: muscle building. It's indeed stress on the muscle fibres which builds them. The force of gravity on Earth pulling us down and our bones and muscles having to hold us up makes both our muscles and bones stronger. Astronauts in low earth orbit are in a constant state of free fall and so they don't get the pressure unless they use the exercise machines. This leads to bone and muscle deterioration. In fact, even if they do use the exercise machines, they still lose some. I also have read ancient humans 10,000 years ago walked so much it made their bones so dense it constitutes most of the density difference between humans and ancient hominims. It's not DNA after all. Osteoporosis, broken bones and other probelms are common, possibly as a result! 10,000 years ago is when the agricultural revolution was born. This was the beginning of the end for the hunter gatherers--who walked much more.

Just like gravity can help us to be healthy, it can also kill us. Too much stress will and does commonly kills us. So I sympathize with your thoughts. And what of all the calamity on Earth? The disasters which kill thousands of people? The spread of disease? War? Illness? I don't think we need those. Even if evolution somehow relies on them, WE can't and won't accept them. Even death itself might be something evolution relies on, but we can't and won't accept it if there's a humane alternative. I believe natural evolution will increasingly come to be trivial, replaced by coordinated engineering of our DNA and epigenetics--assuming we're still biological! I have no reason to think we won't be biological, but who knows.

EDIT: This is about the dog. Her name was Gina (circa 2010):
www.nbcnews.com - Military dog comes home from Iraq traumatized...

And OP I don't want to make light of any ongoing pain or stress you're experiencing. I know anything of that nature can be very difficult to deal with on a daily basis. Many people in this life are subjected to absurd suffering and I don't think anybody in this thread who's talked up the merits of stress is going to that extreme.

Nothing can drive it home more--that much of hte pain we experience is unnecessary--than this video:

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

Life has its beautiful moments. For most of us, we find enough reasons. I like Leonard Nimoy's quote before he died, "A lIfe is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory."

originally posted by: gosseyn



congratulations you learned about basic muscle building. what that has to do with anything is my best guess.

edit on 8-2-2016 by

edit on 8-2-2016 by DrakeINFERNO because: (no reason given)

extra DIV

a reply to: jonnywhite

I understand. The fat people in wall-e actually came to mind.

Sad about that dog, and Jonny.

But no, I don't feel any better by knowing that people like Jonny, or the dog, suffers. Nope, it don't make me feel any better about my own life... that these things happen at all. It's just not ok and it never will be. But I'm not saying I don't love life because obviously I'm here, and I love it SO MUCH that I'll suffer until the very f-cking end. I have to make a very conscious choice to choose life, and health, multiple times a day, due to my own condition. But again, no it don't make me feel any better about my own life to know that others have suffered far worse... in fact that's an awful notion. But if it makes YOU feel better that others suffer... then, maybe you need that extra help to appreciate your life and the things you have. But I never needed that help, personally. I appreciate and love my life consciously, and that others suffer in their lives? That just sucks.

a reply to: geezlouise

Yeah I've never understood the notion of being comforted by others' suffering. There's always someone suffering more than you are. There's someone somewhere suffering more than the examples given. Intersectionality is a thing, and as such, there is always someone worse off. Being thankful you're not them doesn't mean that makes your own struggles any easier - it just means there are people even worse off and I don't find that comforting. I find it sad.

As for the analogy posted above of the cup filled with stress and putting it down, and the notion that to do so is a choice (not you, another poster) I can only say: so what happens when the act of putting cup down is not a choice due to, say, mental illness? Since that's a thing that happens in reality sometimes.

Anyhow... *sigh*

Peace.

originally posted by: gosseyn

originally posted by: geezlouise

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Souls should not have to go thru Amygdala fear overload just to find peace of mind so that the body start to bliss.

This is spot on.

Great suffering does NOT equal or precede enlightenment.

This popular notion is evil in it's inadvertent justification of toxic behaviors.
This popular notion actually aids a person in loving their toxic environment and loving their abuse. It is just another means to make sense of something that doesn't make sense (great suffering). It's twisted, and it's wrong, and it, too, inadvertently justifies and tolerates toxic behavior.

You do not need to experience something to know that it's wrong.
You do not need to suffer to know what's right.

Have you ever watched the French movie "Martyrs" ? I wont spoil it here but you should watch it.

Btw this film looks good and scary. I want to watch it but I'll have to find someone to watch it with because idk if I can do it alone... lol.

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
Strength is not just physical. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is in reference to MENTAL or SPIRITUAL strength. Not necessarily physical...

Think outside of the box.

Even outside of the box it is still the same way of thinking.

I have seen OH SO MANY people that think this way, finally after 20 years realize what an excuse it was, for the utter garbage and stupidity present all around us.

It does NOT make you stronger, it makes you HARDER.