What doesn't kill you... doesn't make you stronger.

a reply to: CIAGypsy

The trap is:

in order to remain physically healthy we must love our environment and situation, even if that means loving our abusers and our toxic environment.

I've thought a little bit more and I want to address the issue of emotional resiliency. Emotional resiliency is not like a muscle that you can strengthen(if it was, how would you strengthen it? by subjecting yourself to abuse?)- in fact... I think it may be confused with the basic survival instinct, which we are all born with. It is my understanding that humans will strive to survive in even in the most terrible of environments... basically, we want to live no matter what. And that's where resiliency comes into the picture. Which is really just survival instinct. It must not be confused with something that you can build up and have more of, because if anything... it's quite the opposite. We are born with it, and over time we get worn down... we get tired, we get old, and we die. If anything, we are born with a specific measure of it, and over time it decays and breaks down and... we die.

It's a trap because in order to be physically healthy in a toxic environment, you would have to learn to love your abuse and you would make all kinds of excuses justifying it.

This quote, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger," is used by people trying to make sense of bad things that happen and are inadvertently justifying the bad things. Because it's far more comfortable to live in a world where good things can come out of something so terrible...

a reply to: LittleByLittle

Sorry, but your post makes little sense to me.

I have an introverted personality. I prefer to be by myself... However, it isn't because I lack social skills or am intimidated by a social situation. In fact, I own several companies and am a classic Type A personality. I can be very aggressive and would certainly fit well within a 'Warrior' role.

Let me also add that I have been through "Amygdala fear overload" (as you put it) and still been able to find calmness and mindfulness. It is a skill that is learned...not something that simply comes naturally (although some people can control fear as a natural talent).

Likewise, mindfulness doesn't need fear as an underlying teacher to learn it. Mindfulness and emotional resiliency can be learned under many different circumstances....not just trauma or mind-numbing fear.

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Souls should not have to go thru Amygdala fear overload just to find peace of mind so that the body start to bliss.

This is spot on.

Great suffering does NOT equal or precede enlightenment.

This popular notion is evil in it's inadvertent justification of toxic behaviors.
This popular notion actually aids a person in loving their toxic environment and loving their abuse. It is just another means to make sense of something that doesn't make sense (great suffering). It's twisted, and it's wrong, and it, too, inadvertently justifies and tolerates toxic behavior.

You do not need to experience something to know that it's wrong.
You do not need to suffer to know what's right.

a reply to: geezlouise

Let me ask you a simple question before I respond to your post about resiliency....have you lived in chronic abuse? Or are you making a logical conclusion to yourself as if you had lived with chronic abuse?

originally posted by: geezlouise

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
Souls should not have to go thru Amygdala fear overload just to find peace of mind so that the body start to bliss.

This is spot on.

Great suffering does NOT = enlightenment.

This popular notion is evil in it's inadvertent justification of toxic behaviors.
This popular notion actually aids a person in loving their toxic environment and loving their abuse. It is just another means to make sense of something that doesn't make sense (great suffering). It's twisted, and it's wrong, and it, too, inadvertently justifies and tolerates toxic behavior.

You do not need to experience something to know that it's wrong.
You do not need to suffer to know what's right.

Not at all...in fact, you are only justifying toxic behavior if you internalize and accept responsibility for someone else's behavior.

Growing up, I had what many people would consider an idyllic childhood. I never had any wants for anything.... Surrounded by a loving family, food, shelter, clothing, pets, toys galore, material things, etc.... From the outside looking it, it probably looked perfect.

But in reality, I had a very traumatic and tragic childhood that was kept hidden away like a dark secret. I am going to limit the details...but let's just say if you could ever think the worst, most debasing things that could ever happen to a human being, chances are that I went through it. I suffered horrific degradation from the time I was an infant until well into my 20's. And yet...I still had to maintain that perfect picture of a well-adjust kid who was also valedictorian and a multi-sport athlete.

And yet, I would not change a SINGLE THING about my life. Not one trauma. It's not because I justify toxic behaviors. I don't own or take ANY responsibility for the things that were done to me. The fault and complete culpability for those things lies at the feet of the people who perpetrated them. As I said before, it doesn't reflect on me...but on them.

Nor would I say that I "loved my environment." Would I have avoided that trauma if I had a choice? Of course... But life is full of things that happen to us outside of our control. Look at the Yazidi's in Iraq. They are being systemicallly eliminated and subjected to all kinds of horrors. Talk to them and they will tell you that they do not "love their environment," but that they will undoubtedly fight for their homes, culture, and way of life. Being emotionally resilient means that you can separate that trauma and move past it. In means living and being happy, IN SPITE OF things that have happened to you outside of your control.

Growth happens through conflict and challenge. People don't grow when they live in an emotional stasis... The key is being faced with life's challenges and being able to find a balance regardless of your environment. It is because of the trauma I have faced in my life that I feel confident in being able to separate myself from the negativity, regardless of the toxicity around me. Had I never lived through that trauma, I would have never had the opportunity or ability to learn that skill.

a reply to: CIAGypsy

I googled "chronic abuse" because I am unfamiliar with the term.

I found this:

"Child abuse or neglect are strong predictors of major health and emotional problems, but little is known about how the chronicity of the maltreatment may increase future harm apart from other risk factors in a child’s life. Scientist have now taken a closer look at how chronic maltreatment has impacted the future health and behavior of children and adults."
-Science Daily

I have already shared that my health has utterly failed me, and I think it's probably clear that I'm basically f-cked emotionally and mentally(if you were to only just glance at my ATS history? but maybe it's not that clear). So, yes. My body and mind are clearly objecting to something and yes, being subjected to some kind of abuse. Back then, now, and in some ways, always. Still unclear as to what you meant by "chronic abuse" but whatever it is that I have personally experienced, it is not ok. Nope, it's not. And it never will be.

a reply to: geezlouise

Well, what has not killed me has made me stronger. It has done so in various ways, but the most important of all, is that my mindset demands that all hardship is a lesson, and all of it has something to teach me.

One day, I might encounter a lesson that may throw light on how to die. But all the lessons I learn between now and then will make me better able to learn the lesson, without finishing the course. You see, when you have an outlook like mine, and your experience and attitude are like mine, you realise that suffering, pain, hunger, fury, sadness... These things are moments, mere moments in a vast concerto of life yet to live. If you learn to ride them, you can appreciate the stillnesses, the moments of peace, the tranquil places, the moments in life where love, joy, unity and compassion win out, to the point where the rest is just a lesson you learned.

It is all mere information, and what you do with it has more bearing on what it does to your body, than does anything else. I have had some pretty hard knocks to the flesh, and some bloody hard knocks to the mind in my life, and some of them very recently. And yet, here I am, still living without the aid of a ventilator, still walking about without the aid of a Zimmer frame, or any other motability assistive devices. Learning to control the level to which stress alters your brain and therefore body chemistry, is very important of course.

I guess what I am saying, is that when some people say that which does not kill me, makes me stronger, they are correct. Some who say it are not, but a blanket denial of the possibility is no more sensible than a blanket statement of its factual certainly in all cases.

Everything you have said is beautiful, and I get it. I really fuggin do. It all makes sense... all up until this point:

originally posted by: CIAGypsyIt is because of the trauma I have faced in my life that I feel confident in being able to separate myself from the negativity, regardless of the toxicity around me. Had I never lived through that trauma, I would have never had the opportunity or ability to learn that skill.

Funny you should save it for last.

I just refuse to join you there. No hard feelings?

a reply to: geezlouise

I felt sadness when I read your OP, expecially with regards to your imune system and I support your point about the invalidity of the Meme . However, it is even more sad that the thread is becoming a place for arguing.

If your immune system is already deffective and you are further drawing from it just to maintain emotional strength , what will be left for the body ? As you state, you rely on technology to stay alive.

From the posts, it just seems as if people are not actually reading your OP completly.

On a biological level I agree. On an ideological/philosophical level I agree even more so.

One of my biggest pet peeves in life - simply because I find it hurtful and like a justification to blame the victim - is when people say, "Everything happens for a reason. Just learn from it and grow stronger. It's all about having a positive attitude." Etc.

While it's true that any experience can be learned from and, indeed, those lessons may strengthen you in some ways - not everything that happens to you leaves you stronger in every imaginable sense. See PTSD that's severe enough to be disabling. Are those people "stronger" for having been psychically broken by severe and repeated trauma? They may learn something from the "experience" of suffering from PTSD but I bet many of them would rather simply forego that lesson and not have to suffer nightmares, personality changes, anxiety, or other associated and often debilitating symptoms.

We have a culture that decries "weakness" and even more so the acknowledgement or, much less, the embracing of one's own weaknesses or limitations. Our society tells us, "You can achieve anything if you try hard enough and never give up!" "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger!" "When one door closes another one opens!" Sometimes maybe. I guess. But that's simply not true in every case or, I would suspect, even most cases. We need to learn, in my opinion at least, to be okay with saying, "Yes, I have a weakness. I may even have several weaknesses. They put me at a disadvantage in certain respects. I am strengthened in other ways to compensate for this weakness, and this weakness does not make me a bad, failed, or poor human being. It's simply a reality, and I refuse to be ashamed of acknowledging it."

Acknowledging weaknesses does not mean ignoring or diminishing strengths or positive attributes. The two aren't mutually exclusive. We just want to deny them because we've been conditioned to never concede them and "be positive." Positivity in this context is, to me, a synonym for denial. A positive attitude can indeed get you through a lot. And it can help you back up when you fall. But denying someone has fallen or indeed, may have hurt themselves badly enough that they'll never get up again just because we don't want to admit that's a thing that can happen... is cruel imho.

It becomes about those who aren't in the situation wanting to protect and maintain their own worldview and concept of how they WISH things were, rather than compassion for the one who has fallen down.

Just my opinion as one who has experienced this.

Peace.

originally posted by: geezlouise
Everything you have said is beautiful, and I get it. I really fuggin do. It all makes sense... all up until this point:

originally posted by: CIAGypsyIt is because of the trauma I have faced in my life that I feel confident in being able to separate myself from the negativity, regardless of the toxicity around me. Had I never lived through that trauma, I would have never had the opportunity or ability to learn that skill.

Funny you should save it for last.

I just refuse to join you there. No hard feelings?

No offense taken. I know because I was where you are at one time. I didn't suddenly get to this philosophical perspective overnight. In my 20's, I was really f'ed up. I embraced a very dangerous life style because I just didn't care. Hoped that my dangerous life would lead to my death... Because I didn't believe in killing yourself outright, but if it happened by 'accident' then oh well.

It took time to realize that my apathy was related to pain and hurt that I had buried and refused to acknowledge. It is one thing to say you shouldn't embrace responsibility for the things that others perpetrated on you...and another to really UNDERSTAND what that means and let go. I had to learn how to "sit with the pain" to acknowledge its harm against myself. And then let it go. Holding on it what isn't my responsibility would only keep me a victim.

I am not a victim. I am not a survivor. I am a human being who has lived, plain and simple. People have a hard time accepting emotional pain. Physical pain is easy. You can see it, feel it, and easily use medication to get through it. Emotional pain is different. It is not seen. It is not just felt within the body, but also the mind. It can poison your life if not handled properly. Emotional pain has a purpose. Covering it up or denying it will not make it go away. It will manifest itself in your body and your environment.

Emotions are what give us our humanity. They can be beautiful...or toxic. How you manage them decides which end of the scale they will be. I had to acknowledge my true feelings about the trauma I experienced. In some cases, that meant mentally reliving it so I could go through the process of FEELING. It's hard because you may truly feel like you are going to die. But you won't...it WILL pass. And then you can move through the phase to acceptance. And with acceptance comes the ability to separate responsibility for things that aren't yours to own.

Being able to move beyond it and live happily is emotional resilience. It is understanding "what doesn't kill you will only make you stronger."

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
a reply to: LittleByLittle

Sorry, but your post makes little sense to me.

I have an introverted personality. I prefer to be by myself... However, it isn't because I lack social skills or am intimidated by a social situation. In fact, I own several companies and am a classic Type A personality. I can be very aggressive and would certainly fit well within a 'Warrior' role.

Let me also add that I have been through "Amygdala fear overload" (as you put it) and still been able to find calmness and mindfulness. It is a skill that is learned...not something that simply comes naturally (although some people can control fear as a natural talent).

Likewise, mindfulness doesn't need fear as an underlying teacher to learn it. Mindfulness and emotional resiliency can be learned under many different circumstances....not just trauma or mind-numbing fear.

You and I must have different definition on what a "Amygdala fear overload" is since after a Amygdala fear overload I would expect your Amygdala to have changed how it works so that calmness comes naturally when you just choose to be aware. It is hard to not find calmness when the Amydala releases chemical that make you naturally high.

a reply to: crowdedskies

It is easier for us to live in a world where something good can come out of evil.

And our health is at risk! Also, I'm attacking a really super popular expression that we've all used a bunch of times without ever really even thinking about it. Even I'm guilty of it.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: crowdedskies

Also, I'm attacking a really super popular expression that we've all used a bunch of times without ever really even thinking about it.

Keep on doing it !

Only the brave and wise can challenge generally accepted concepts

a reply to: AceWombat04

Recovery is a process and it's different for everyone. Some people never recover. This is true whether we are talking about physical wounds or emotional ones.

But the quote in question "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" is a choice of attitude and perspective, in my experience. Success is determined by how you measure it. The same could apply to physical wounds. Let's say you have terminal cancer. You may make a choice to have a positive attitude, but it doesn't mean you will not die from cancer. So does that make your life in its entirety or from that point forward a worthless venture? I'd say no...it depends what you do with it. Attitude and perspective.

a reply to: AceWombat04

See, strength does not abandon a person who is broken. It just manifests in different ways, and under different circumstances.

I do not see someone who is missing their legs as being weak, and I do not see someone whose every cell is screaming in agony as being weak. The chances are, that if I see someone making their way in the world, despite the damage, even if what they are doing amounts to simply existing, even if they cannot hold a job, so bad is the pain, no matter what sort it is, then all I see is someone who is balls out hardcore. I have a friend who has fibromyalgia, as does my cousin. I have another friend who, with the aid of a spinal implant is conquering a damaged nerve cluster in his spine by becoming a cyborg in all but name. My mother is slower, physically, than she was, and all the knocks she has taken have started to show.

Not a one of these individuals, on their worst day, has ever shown actual weakness. Vulnerability, yes. Sorrow, certainly. But never weakness, because weakness is not a state of body, and it is a state of mind which is not a certain outcome in those who are physically or mentally damaged. I have met physically healthy people who were weak, many more of them than those who had ailments of body or mind, and yet maintained their strength.

One of my mothers best friends is bent double with back trouble, walks with two crutches, takes twenty minutes to clamber up and down stairs to the bathroom, and barely leaves the house. She has the strength of will of a thousand axe wielding behemoths, and I would never consider her as anything other than a bastion, a tower, a deathspitting pinnacle of badassery. Why? Because for all the pain she is in, from the spine, right down to her legs, all full of water and blistered and buggered up as they are, she is also a determined, insightful, intelligent and potent human being, who has reserves of determination and willpower that dwarf those of any human being I have ever met.

She does not see herself as weak, because she is not. She is housebound, she is disabled by her pain and condition, but she is strong. These are not mutually exclusive conditions.

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
a reply to: AceWombat04

Recovery is a process and it's different for everyone. Some people never recover. This is true whether we are talking about physical wounds or emotional ones.

But the quote in question "what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger" is a choice of attitude and perspective, in my experience. Success is determined by how you measure it. The same could apply to physical wounds. Let's say you have terminal cancer. You may make a choice to have a positive attitude, but it doesn't mean you will not die from cancer. So does that make your life in its entirety or from that point forward a worthless venture? I'd say no...it depends what you do with it. Attitude and perspective.

If that's how you characterize "strength," then there is no disagreement from me. But there are people who characterize it very differently than simply whether or not you choose to characterize your life as a "worthless venture" despite knowing there are limitations placed upon it. It's a semantic distinction.

If by strength what is meant is, "Physical and emotional capability to engage in a functional, productive life by others' standards," which IS what is often implied by the saying and the sorts of positivism I'm referring to... then I would say no - whatever doesn't kill you does not make you stronger. If what is meant by strength is, "The decision to internally value and continue with your own life in a way you can personally live with and find validity and worth in," then sure... whatever doesn't kill you CAN make you stronger. But that's not what's always meant when people use this phrase.

In my experience, often when people say this what they really mean is, "If you don't achieve X level of functionality by my own standards, you are choosing to be weak and it's your own fault." That's what I have a problem with. Not your characterization of the phrase.

However I would point out that even within that characterization and my second characterization, there will still be people who aren't strengthened but instead spiral down into self-destruction. People who become so depressed for instance, that they end their lives. Since I characterize depression as a disease like any other, and since the brain is not a magical entity but rather just mean and ion channels like any other physical organ, I refuse to begrudge those people as "weak" simply because the course of their disease differed from what society wishes it did.

That's all I'm saying. As always, just a subjective personal opinion.

Peace

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: AceWombat04

See, strength does not abandon a person who is broken. It just manifests in different ways, and under different circumstances.

I do not see someone who is missing their legs as being weak, and I do not see someone whose every cell is screaming in agony as being weak. The chances are, that if I see someone making their way in the world, despite the damage, even if what they are doing amounts to simply existing, even if they cannot hold a job, so bad is the pain, no matter what sort it is, then all I see is someone who is balls out hardcore. I have a friend who has fibromyalgia, as does my cousin. I have another friend who, with the aid of a spinal implant is conquering a damaged nerve cluster in his spine by becoming a cyborg in all but name. My mother is slower, physically, than she was, and all the knocks she has taken have started to show.

Not a one of these individuals, on their worst day, has ever shown actual weakness. Vulnerability, yes. Sorrow, certainly. But never weakness, because weakness is not a state of body, and it is a state of mind which is not a certain outcome in those who are physically or mentally damaged. I have met physically healthy people who were weak, many more of them than those who had ailments of body or mind, and yet maintained their strength.

One of my mothers best friends is bent double with back trouble, walks with two crutches, takes twenty minutes to clamber up and down stairs to the bathroom, and barely leaves the house. She has the strength of will of a thousand axe wielding behemoths, and I would never consider her as anything other than a bastion, a tower, a deathspitting pinnacle of badassery. Why? Because for all the pain she is in, from the spine, right down to her legs, all full of water and blistered and buggered up as they are, she is also a determined, insightful, intelligent and potent human being, who has reserves of determination and willpower that dwarf those of any human being I have ever met.

She does not see herself as weak, because she is not. She is housebound, she is disabled by her pain and condition, but she is strong. These are not mutually exclusive conditions.

In my dialectic, I would say they are weak in certain respects and strong in others, and that the two are not mutually exclusive.

A personal example: I have Asperger's and debilitating social anxiety. I also have PTSD for reasons I won't get into & a lot of physical issues. I'm better off by far than a lot of people and I'm thankful for that. But... Am I weak in some respect? Hell yes. I have no shame in admitting it, either. I have a profound weakness when it comes to certain activities, and this weakness places me at a disadvantage compared to others. That's just reality and it's not a bad attitude or a sign of a poor outlook to admit that. It limits me. It prevents me from doing things I want to do. This causes me pain.

Saying I am weak in those respects however, does not make me weak. That's a subtle, nuanced aspect of this debate I feel is missing. It's possible to acknowledge weaknesses without denigrating the self or the worth of the self. I love myself. I don't see myself as in invalid, failed person. But has everything that has ever happened to me made me stronger? Absolutely not. Some things that have happened to me, HAVE limited my capacity to function in this world, and that's just the truth. Not an opinion - a fact. Because I'm the one living it. And my "attitude" has nothing to do with that. Believe me. I've tried the whole, "Never give up and you can achieve anything!" belief structure. It doesn't work for me. If it does for others, I'm gladdened for them. But that's simply not true for everyone.

Now, have those experiences strengthened me in other ways? Sure. They've enhanced my empathy, my ability to be reflective and insightful about the human condition, etc. I'd like to think the time spent in isolation has made me a more proficient writer and thinker. And I like to think my company and effort toward compassion and empathy has lightened the burdens of others in my life by virtue of my company, listening, and friendship.

But I have limitations and while I am not "weak" in and of myself because of them, they are weaknesses relative to my wishes for myself. And it's not a choice. And it's not an attitude. It's just meat and ion channels.

Peace.

a reply to: AceWombat04

And what I'm saying is that "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is a personal revelation of inner strength. It is a personal acceptance of yourself and an acknowledgement of what YOU have been through in your life, but the ability to move past what was done to you and live in spite of it. It is an internal revelation, acknowledgement, and decision.

What others think plays no part in it unless you allow them to....

originally posted by: CIAGypsy
a reply to: AceWombat04

And what I'm saying is that "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is a personal revelation of inner strength. It is a personal acceptance of yourself and an acknowledgement of what YOU have been through in your life, but the ability to move past what was done to you and live in spite of it. It is an internal revelation, acknowledgement, and decision.

What others think plays no part in it unless you allow them to....

As I said, it doesn't sound like we disagree except perhaps semantically on one point.

Peace.

originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: crowdedskies

It is easier for us to live in a world where something good can come out of evil.

And our health is at risk! Also, I'm attacking a really super popular expression that we've all used a bunch of times without ever really even thinking about it. Even I'm guilty of it.

I'm glad you questioned it. It's a good exercise to better understand what it really means (or could mean) to you.