Let’s look at the Worlds Socialists countries

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Leonidas
I think some people in this thread are conflating the terms "Socialism" with "Communism".

Not at all. Those of us who know that neither is possible in reality, are very well aware of the definitions and technical / operational meanings of both. Especially as they dovetail in the same long-winded myth.

You may be swayed by the endless repetitions of "hawhawhawhaw you don't even know what it means" or "teeheehee your so dum" from the believers. They spend more of their time pretending that everybody who disagrees with them, knows nothing......than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Can you give an example of a successful capitalist country?

Um, America ? And yes, we're in huge debt thanks to socialistic spending with no effort to acknowledge waste or failure of programs, just more spending. To include the military; the sens and reps dole out the $ to their states, for crap that the military doesn't even want. And that's a good example of the socialistic tendencies of America. Crony capitalism and spending and budgeting. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Hope this helps.

Capitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

But America (I assume you mean the USA rather than the whole continent) isn't capitalist. It's a mixed economy just like every successful economy in the world. You are trying to ascribe very successful part of the USA to Capitalism and blame all it's problems on social programs. The problem you have with this is it's completely illogical and evidence free.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: Leonidas
I think some people in this thread are conflating the terms "Socialism" with "Communism".

Not at all. Those of us who know that neither is possible in reality, are very well aware of the definitions and technical / operational meanings of both. Especially as they dovetail in the same long-winded myth.

You may be swayed by the endless repetitions of "hawhawhawhaw you don't even know what it means" or "teeheehee your so dum" from the believers. They spend more of their time pretending that everybody who disagrees with them, knows nothing......than acknowledging the realities of the 100% failure rate of the theory.

Can you give an example of a successful capitalist country?

Um, America ? And yes, we're in huge debt thanks to socialistic spending with no effort to acknowledge waste or failure of programs, just more spending. To include the military; the sens and reps dole out the $ to their states, for crap that the military doesn't even want. And that's a good example of the socialistic tendencies of America. Crony capitalism and spending and budgeting. Plus the best legitimate medical and financial safety nets ever devised, because capitalism has created a glut of money to do it with.

Hope this helps.

Capitalist UK did well....now they're on the ropes because of their creeping socialism including massive amounts of ME criminals and terrorists, just walking into the country and onto the dole.

But America (I assume you mean the USA rather than the whole continent) isn't capitalist. It's a mixed economy just like every successful economy in the world. You are trying to ascribe very successful part of the USA to Capitalism and blame all it's problems on social programs. The problem you have with this is it's completely illogical and evidence free.

Your points are much more logical and solid than your opponent's.

a reply to: onequestion

Have you ever tried to pick yourself up by your bootstraps? It's pretty much impossible. The capitalist system we have in place (read: corrupt) loves for people to try this because they never get very far doing it. CEO's having millions of people lifting them up, the average person does not, so it's easy for them to say this.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: onequestion

Have you ever tried to pick yourself up by your bootstraps? It's pretty much impossible. The capitalist system we have in place (read: corrupt) loves for people to try this because they never get very far doing it. CEO's having millions of people lifting them up, the average person does not, so it's easy for them to say this.

If you can''t make it in America... I don't know what to tell you.

There is a reason people float on innertubes across shark infested waters and run across deserts to get to this country.

You may not become a millionaire, but you most certainly can eek out a decent living. Far too many people simply make poor choices. Unfortunately, our economy is becoming less forgiving of such decisions.

My family went from poor black sharecroppers to me earning a very good living in barely two generations. I didn't have any inheritances or anything. Just followed a basic map laid out of doing well in school, not getting some hoodrat pregnant before I was married, staying out of the criminal justice system, and just working hard at what ever I am tasked to do. I was making six figures at 26 years old. I didn't do anything special. I just emulated what I saw successful people doing and didn't do the things the broke mofo's in my neighborhood did.

a reply to: Edumakated


One thing you fail to recognise is the fact that people are not equal when it comes to mental/physical capabilities or mental/physical healt problems as well as back ground of them. If you have been taught that something is right or wrong for the whole of you life, considering whether it is so is extremely tough for majority of people.


I am honest, personally, I have done very well in my life. I was born into a nice, middle-class family. I studied in one of top school systems in the world. I have in total 3 degrees, two bachelors/one masters (on government tuition due to all university costs for everyone coming from taxes). After finishing my first bachelor´s I landed on a very good spot (which I changed afterwards due to change of management). Although what my point is, I do not consider my life happening by my choices, my hard work. I am just lucky. I have the ability to learn, memorise things times faster than the person. To be honest, I have never worked hard on anything in my life. While others were studying, I partied. While others were attending classes, I slept or watched movies at home. Still, I was the top of my class. I am lucky I have not had depression or other mental health issues, which make it harder to concentrate, make it harder to do anything. I am lucky, I have no health issues. About both these, not to jinx it, I would say so far

Although what I see everywhere too many successful people fail to recognise how important such things are in life. If learning any skill is hard for a person, if they have mental issues or health issues, problems at home, tough childhood, whatever like that, most of them are unable to compete with people who have the talent, whose health and personal life are fine, however hard they work.


You should consider yourself lucky, you had the ability to notice the details around you, to have reasonably good health and reasonably good mental health. I can not say anything about those for sure. If I am wrong, then correct me. Although I would say that vast majority of people who had such problems are unable to succeed in life. Human mind is incredibly complex system. If one blood hormone level is wrong, anything one has seen in their life is able to influence their decision, their behaviour for their life without them even knowing it...

a reply to: Edumakated

I don't think you understood what I meant. Maybe this picture will help you out:



"Pick yourself up by the bootstraps" is about one of the dumbest sayings because it doesn't work that way. If anything it means "try and you will fail every time".

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Fully understood what you were saying... doesn't change the reality though that nothing is going to be handed to you.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That pic is a good excuse for failure !!!!

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Fully understood what you were saying... doesn't change the reality though that nothing is going to be handed to you.

Of course not but conditions can be made to make it easier.

A healthy growing economy with a diversity of jobs from service, manufacturing , finance and Science is VITAL.
That way hard working people of all skills and intelligence levels can at least get a decent job with a comfortable wage.

The problem is today the economy is pretty stagnant and with diversity of jobs becoming less and less. More and more middle class and high wage jobs are disappearing. So many who in the past would have got comfortable jobs in a factory or in a mine ect now find themselves on minimum wage service jobs.

Now the solution to that isn’t found ins socialism.

Corporate tax cuts, Tarrifis on foreign imports and the stopping of unfair trade deals is what is needed.

When a economy is healthy and diverse, people are happy.

originally posted by: Cabin
a reply to: Edumakated


One thing you fail to recognise is the fact that people are not equal when it comes to mental/physical capabilities or mental/physical healt problems as well as back ground of them. If you have been taught that something is right or wrong for the whole of you life, considering whether it is so is extremely tough for majority of people.


I am honest, personally, I have done very well in my life. I was born into a nice, middle-class family. I studied in one of top school systems in the world. I have in total 3 degrees, two bachelors/one masters (on government tuition due to all university costs for everyone coming from taxes). After finishing my first bachelor´s I landed on a very good spot (which I changed afterwards due to change of management). Although what my point is, I do not consider my life happening by my choices, my hard work. I am just lucky. I have the ability to learn, memorise things times faster than the person. To be honest, I have never worked hard on anything in my life. While others were studying, I partied. While others were attending classes, I slept or watched movies at home. Still, I was the top of my class. I am lucky I have not had depression or other mental health issues, which make it harder to concentrate, make it harder to do anything. I am lucky, I have no health issues. About both these, not to jinx it, I would say so far

Although what I see everywhere too many successful people fail to recognise how important such things are in life. If learning any skill is hard for a person, if they have mental issues or health issues, problems at home, tough childhood, whatever like that, most of them are unable to compete with people who have the talent, whose health and personal life are fine, however hard they work.


You should consider yourself lucky, you had the ability to notice the details around you, to have reasonably good health and reasonably good mental health. I can not say anything about those for sure. If I am wrong, then correct me. Although I would say that vast majority of people who had such problems are unable to succeed in life. Human mind is incredibly complex system. If one blood hormone level is wrong, anything one has seen in their life is able to influence their decision, their behaviour for their life without them even knowing it...

I never said people are equal. I'm not the one trying to make everyone equal. I accept some people have advantages and disadvantages. Was I lucky? In some ways. However, I'm where I am mostly through my own efforts. I believe Oprah once said that luck is when preparation and opportunity meet. In other words, you have to prepare yourself to take advantage of certain opportunities when they present themselves to you.

I don't believe everyone will be rich. It simply is not possible. Life sometimes throws us curve balls. We have set backs. however, it is up to each individual to deal with them as necessary. However, I do believe most people have the ability to make a decent living for themselves.

I don't have time to be envious of people who might be more successful than me financially. I study what they did and figure out if I can learn from them. I live my own life.

I know people who are immensely wealthy who came from absolutely nothing. I also know people who had every advantage in life one could hope for and they squandered it all.

If many of the whiners on ATS spent as much time bettering themselves or working hard as they do complaining about the rich, they might be more successful.

a reply to: xuenchen

No, it's just pointing out how dumb the saying is. It doesn't make any sense.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Willtell

We did learn from other systems. Our Constitution is a direct result of the Magna Carta.

None of these socialist countries have a Bill of Rights nor do they have a Constitution.

Honest question, do you want to do away with the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Because I don't see how you can have socialism here in the US and keep those documents.

Those who actually read the Magna Carta know that it was written to protect the barons, not the 'common' people.

The USA is a socialist country, it's just that's it's been twisted to become more bureaucratic (Meaning bigger government) than it needs to and it's been twisted to favor big corporations over personal freedom.

Everyone on this thread wants (the modern, general population understanding of...) socialism. We want government to pay for public education for k-12, we want government to give us unemployment money when we get fired, we want a gaurnteed 40 hour work week, we want food stamps when we can't afford food, we want welfare when something happens to us, we want to be picked up by an ambulance and saved by an emergency room when we get hurt even if we can't afford that, we want government to pay for bridges and roads, we want government to pay for police and fire and military, we want to be able to retire and have the government pay for us to live after a certain age. YOu can lie, but you want this...otherwise, why do you live in the lower states. Move to Alaska in the wilderness where you can do everything for yourself.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
No, it's just pointing out how dumb the saying is. It doesn't make any sense.

No more sense than "text me" or "we can hash it out online" would have made 100 years ago.

It means nothing more than elevate yourself, using an idiom that suited the era that created it.

originally posted by: amazing
The USA is a socialist country, it's just that's it's been twisted to become more bureaucratic (Meaning bigger government) than it needs to and it's been twisted to favor big corporations over personal freedom.

Everyone on this thread wants (the modern, general population understanding of...) socialism. We want government to pay for public education for k-12, we want government to give us unemployment money when we get fired, we want a gaurnteed 40 hour work week, we want food stamps when we can't afford food, we want welfare when something happens to us, we want to be picked up by an ambulance and saved by an emergency room when we get hurt even if we can't afford that, we want government to pay for bridges and roads, we want government to pay for police and fire and military, we want to be able to retire and have the government pay for us to live after a certain age. YOu can lie, but you want this...otherwise, why do you live in the lower states. Move to Alaska in the wilderness where you can do everything for yourself.

Speak for yourself...

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: amazing
The USA is a socialist country, it's just that's it's been twisted to become more bureaucratic (Meaning bigger government) than it needs to and it's been twisted to favor big corporations over personal freedom.

Everyone on this thread wants (the modern, general population understanding of...) socialism. We want government to pay for public education for k-12, we want government to give us unemployment money when we get fired, we want a gaurnteed 40 hour work week, we want food stamps when we can't afford food, we want welfare when something happens to us, we want to be picked up by an ambulance and saved by an emergency room when we get hurt even if we can't afford that, we want government to pay for bridges and roads, we want government to pay for police and fire and military, we want to be able to retire and have the government pay for us to live after a certain age. YOu can lie, but you want this...otherwise, why do you live in the lower states. Move to Alaska in the wilderness where you can do everything for yourself.

Speak for yourself...

What do you want then? Most of us would have a hard time without a police force, public education, roads and bridges and some form of healthcare when we can't afford etc. I like knowing there's a fire department and ambulances that will come and save my family if I'm not there. I like to know what with all the taxes I pay, that I can retire at a certain age no matter what. I like to know that if I have a catastrophic accident that my family would be able to eat and have some type of shelter.

You don't?

All I have to add is that the definition of the word "socialism" is lengthy and it has many types and has changed throughout the centuries. I don't think I have ever known a word so complex. I don't think there is just one metaphor someone could use to describe it due to the varieties of socialism and how it is used in different countries, thanks for this thread, it helped me learn more about the word. Sorry I have nothing to add except that proven methods of socialism should be looked at. I also wish that people would stop saying the same snippet like "socialism has been proven ineffective and wont work", "look what it did to Greece" and so on, I wish they would come up with something else, those are old and worn out statements.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: schuyler

Your points are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Did you actually think about what your saying or did you simply only respond to the word socialism?

Topic is socialist utopia's. Poster points out that many of these nations MURDERED MILLIONS of their own citizens to achieve their [failed] 'utopias'.

And you call that irrelevant?!?!

a reply to: 8675309jenny

The points are irrelevant.


Social democracy/democratic socialism is a capitalist system with social safety networks and most necessary sectors that every person needs run by government. The main goal is not equality but providing everybody equal opportunities wherever they are from, whatever their financial status is. Safe environment, strong education, good healthcare and so on.

Communism , nazism have killed millions of people. These have killed millions of people. Social democracies have not killed anyone in order to become what they currently are. I would say compared to extremely capitalistic systems more lives have been saved.

originally posted by: 8675309jenny


Topic is socialist utopia's. Poster points out that many of these nations MURDERED MILLIONS of their own citizens to achieve their [failed] 'utopias'.

And you call that irrelevant?!?!

WHAT....?

How and when did these nations murder millions of their own citizens??
What is this referring to?