Would you support social engineering aimed at reforming Islam?

Most Muslims are good people. They are hard working and peaceful and I think it's a mistake to say Islam needs reform. Islam is so similar to Christianity and really doesn't deserve to be singled out as "in need of reform". If you want to be honest, Christianity needs as much or more reform. Don't be deceived into thinking that Islam and war are inseparable. To say Islam needs reform is to insult every Muslim, the majority being regular people and not militant.

And I don't mean to insult christans by saying they need reform, I realize that is contradictory. What religion is perfect? None. But Islam is not a violent religion. America is a violent country, doesn't mean Christianity is a violent religion. American Muslims are not a problem at large. There is no Muslim bias where I live. Everyone gets along. Unfortunately the Iraq war that was based on a lie happened. We really !ucked that place up. Motivated by greedy politicians and Industrialists in the arms business. Oil too, and who knows what else? But the Iraq people didn't deserve to be occupied, they were grateful for the removal of "the new Nebuchadnezzar" Saddam Hussein. If we had handled it better then we would have allies instead we have chaos.

a reply to: eletheia

Why can't you seperatee violence from religion. Islam isn't any different than christianity. Different interpretations, same principle. The violence you see inthe world is not rreligions fault. People do violence. America has the highest prison population in the world and many are violent even if there charges arent. America is a dangerous country. But we don't blame Christianity for that.

originally posted by: Essene616


Why can't you seperatee violence from religion. Islam isn't any different than christianity. Different interpretations, same principle.

The violence that is being perpetrated .... remind me who is responsible

for it?

Which ever country it is occurring in, what is the common denominator?

The violence you see inthe world is not rreligions fault.

???? Really, again then what is the common denominator in ALL

the terrorist activity.

People do violence.

What religion are these people who strap explosives to themselves and

commit suicide and murder shouting *Allahu Akbar*?

America has the highest prison population in the world and many are violent even if there charges arent. America is a dangerous country. But we don't blame Christianity for that.

I would feel safer in America than anywhere in the middle east.

The prison population of America have committed crimes against their

fellow men for whatever their gain was personally, and not for *their*

or *any* God!!

You would have to a complete moron to think that Islam needs reform because a minority are terrorists. How stupid do you have to be to even suggest such a thing.

originally posted by: 369elyon
You would have to a complete moron to think that Islam needs reform because a minority are terrorists. How stupid do you have to be to even suggest such a thing.

That's not why Islam needs to reform.

a reply to: DJW001
Your right because it doesn't need any reform, it is more similar to Christianity than different.

originally posted by: 369elyon
a reply to: DJW001
Your right because it doesn't need any reform, it is more similar to Christianity than different.

Then why have all the progress that has been made in science, technology, agriculture, and civil and human rights come out of predominantly secular countries? Why does tiny Israel have a thriving high tech sector and Egypt does not? Why do Muslim countries turn a blind eye to rape and honor killings? Why do so many Muslims find terror an acceptable weapon? Why do imams blame European women when Muslim men attack them?

Islam needs to adapt itself to the modern world, not the other way around. This is Islam's tragic flaw: it arrogantly believes the rest of the world needs to accommodate it. It's one thing for a shop owner to close his store for noon prayers; its another for Muslim workers to insist that the factory floor grind to a halt. The ummah has got to decide what is really important about Islam, and hold on to that while rejecting superficiality. Imams need to preach ijtihad, not jihad. Islam is in the midst of a diaspora. In the past, Islam would enter a region as a conqueror; now, it is spreading across the world in defeat, seeking refuge. Muslims can learn from Jews; during their long diaspora, they learned to adapt to the many cultures they lived among without losing their Jewish identity. Islam must learn to do this, or perish.

Perish? Yes, and that's not a threat, that's just a sad observation. If imams insist on the strictest possible interpretation of Islamic culture, it will prove difficult to practice in the societies Muslims now find themselves in. If it is too difficult, people simply won't bother with it any more. They will join the vast majority out there who simply do not consider themselves religious, and Islam will become a curiosity found in third world nations.

a reply to: DJW001

You mean the country they illegally stole? Arabs have made great contributions to science, math and many other things. Drop your hatred for 5 seconds and do some research biggot.

a reply to: DJW001

Your not to bright if you think the second largest religion in the world is going to be relegated to the 3rd world. It's actually growing.

a reply to: DJW001
Don't be a racist. You don't live over there and you don't know #.

a reply to: tadaman

No. I would not support that. I will explain why.

During the reformation of Christianity, the ultimate problem was that the majority were taking their entire religion from the mouths of an elite who had politicized it, when it was not a political religion. They ruled over the people through the people's ignorance of what the scriptures said. The reformation of Christianity was a simple as translating scripture into the language people understood, and then standing up to those elite. That was what it took, and all it took.

With Islam, the religion is different. It IS a political system written into the religion itself. It covers self, community, country, world. It seeks, in its own design, to rule. And it doesn't have to rule through simple ignorance, it rules of its own design. Your average Muslim can read and understand their own religious text just fine. Knowledge of it is widespread. That leaves little left to work with, and is the reason why people with more moderate outlook on the religion refuse to fight against harsher groups unless it is their own life at stake, and even then most simply move than take a stand and fight because this is built into the religion.

In other words, short of doing a complete and total rewrite of all their books, you have no chance at any sort of real reformation such as Christianity once experienced. With Christianity the problems existed due to lack of knowledge, with Islam, the problem IS knowledge of the religion. In such a case, the religion cannot reform itself without being removed.

a reply to: Kitana
It doesn't need reform anyway, it is more similar to Christianity than different. I'd reform Christianity before Islam, and I am Christian.

a reply to: Kitana

It doesn't need reform anyway, I'd reform Christianity before Islam and I am Christian.

originally posted by: 369elyon
a reply to: DJW001

You mean the country they illegally stole? Arabs have made great contributions to science, math and many other things. Drop your hatred for 5 seconds and do some research biggot.

I'll bet I can name more Muslim mathematicians and natural philosophers than you can. I have actually studied Islam and its history. Apparently, you just like it because so many Muslims hate Jews. Now, stop spamming online discussion forums and actually learn about Islam. BTW, are you starring your own posts? Sock puppetry is frowned on around here.

a reply to: DJW001
Great so stop hating.

a reply to: DJW001
I don't even know what starring is so no, im not.

a reply to: Kitana

In other words, short of doing a complete and total rewrite of all their books, you have no chance at any sort of real reformation such as Christianity once experienced. With Christianity the problems existed due to lack of knowledge, with Islam, the problem IS knowledge of the religion. In such a case, the religion cannot reform itself without being removed.

The same was true of biblical Judaism. When the Temple was destroyed, the whole structure of both the religion and society was destroyed. Sacrificial offerings could no longer be made, and the priesthood was effectively dissolved. Through the diaspora, the nature of the religion began to change, until much of the Old Testament has become completely re-interpreted. With the current diaspora, Islam will begin to change as well. The bloodshed in West Asia is the last hurrah of "political Islam;" Islam will need to reinvent itself as a spiritual path, with jihad being an inner spiritual struggle.

a reply to: DJW001 your kind of miserable huh?

originally posted by: 369elyon
a reply to: DJW001
Great so stop hating.

Where do I espouse hate? You, on the other hand have accused Jews of stealing land and called me a bigot because I think Islam needs to evolve if it is going to survive.