A Case For Reincarnation

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Okay.....
perhaps your definition of "thing" and "substance" is coming between our ability to communicate.

It has no existence beyond the thing it is describing, is what I'm saying. "Conscious" is an adjective, not a person, place or thing. It's how we describe persons, places or things. Something is conscious, but conscious isn't something.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Conscious" is an adjective, not a person, place or thing.

I think it is a thing.

a reply to: WhiteHat

Tיhe "human body" is actually only a concept. What we call human body is a sum of different parts, also made from smaller different part, all made from the same elements as the dust. So this cluster of elements we call human body and that cluster of elements dust. Then something we call death happens and the elements forming the human body break apart and slowly become...dust.
Not very different from the ice and water analogy.

But this point is not so relevant since is not the body who reincarnate, but that mysterious thing keeping the human body elements together.

A human body is a singular thing, not a sum of parts. Bodies grow; they aren't put together. Parts fall off bodies; they aren't used to compose them.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I think it is a thing.

It is a thing, indeed. It is the human body.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope
If there are parts "falling off" then it is a sum of parts. I think it's simple logic.
Is a hand the body or part of the body? Is there a body if you take all the parts off?
Common, is nothing mystical here, just logic. Even if is growing a body is a sum of many parts.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
For example, when winter comes does that mean the trees and foliage are dead forever? No, we know that in a few months they will bloom again when Spring comes.

The foliage that falls IS dead. It does not keep growing once it has fallen. New leaves take their place.

Thought I'd mention that seeing as you are talking about definition.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It is not the human body otherwise dead people would still be conscious.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
I believe I am conscious most of the time, yes, but I do not believe consciousness is any sort of thing or substance. It's like saying happiness and sadness will be recycled when we die. It's nonsensical.

"Happiness and sadness WILL be recycled when we die"

When my grandfather died, I was happy about all the good times we had but sad we would no longer share them. That happened after he died. Every time I think of him all these years later, I feel happy and sad about certain things. You cannot tell me those thoughts and feelings are exclusive to life.

Again, it's all about definition, and after reading your O.P. and comments it seems clear that you have made up your mind about so many things without affording yourself the opportunity to think outside the box.

Have you considered that a person who dies doesn't just lose their energy to the outside world around them? What if it is then diverted into the processes of decomposition and change? Death is maybe not the end when a person stops functioning as a "being" except when the word "death" is used to define the moment they cease to funtion as that being.

We are energy, pure and simple. Energy that binds our molecules together and makes them function as an entity with minute atomic structure and order. Death is the beginning of Chaos until each part finds a new home...inevitable but often a loooooong journey of unknown destination.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It is not the human body otherwise dead people would still be conscious.

How do you know they're not?

a reply to: WhiteHat

If there are parts "falling off" then it is a sum of parts. I think it's simple logic.
Is a hand the body or part of the body? Is there a body if you take all the parts off?
Common, is nothing mystical here, just logic. Even if is growing a body is a sum of many parts.

Not really. If things are removed from the sum total they are being subtracted. In other words, a hand is no longer a part of the sum total if it is removed. Dust is no longer a part of the sum total if it is subtracted from the total.

a reply to: nerbot

Because their brains no longer function, their hearts stop beating, and they are no longer breathing, all of which are essential for life to be present.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

It is not the human body otherwise dead people would still be conscious.

A living human body is not the same as a dead one.

a reply to: nerbot

We are energy, pure and simple. Energy that binds our molecules together and makes them function as an entity with minute atomic structure and order. Death is the beginning of Chaos until each part finds a new home...inevitable but often a loooooong journey of unknown destination.

Saying "we are energy" is no different than saying "we are mass". It's nonsensical.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What's the difference between them? One moves and the other doesn't, so what allows a body to move?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

What's the difference between them? One moves and the other doesn't, so what allows a body to move?

One functions, the other does not.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

That's a simple way of saying it but it doesn't address the why of the situation.

Isn't this a pointless argument in the end? Suppose that we all reached broad agreement that we are 'recycled' by the universe and we never truly die? I still won't be able to remember 'me'. My experiences. My very essence. How many people actually have concrete past lives experience? The ones I hear of tend to have quite colourful stories but never any clear recollections or detail.

To use a simple and non controversial example , how many of us from this site will die and then if/when we come back remember our passwords so we can pick up the thread where we left off, with full knowledge of what we said before?

Without continuity of consciousness, are we not 'dead' regardless of whether the materials of our bodies are recycled?

The only afterlife I could really imagine is one where we move to a different place. By place, I mean dimension, or higher plane of existence. One that can not interact with this one. Reincarnation does not make any sense to me because, either, we would have SOME evidence of it after all these generations, or, it doesn't include our 'consciousness' so it's the same as being 'dead' anyway.

originally posted by: UKTruth
Isn't this a pointless argument in the end? Suppose that we all reached broad agreement that we are 'recycled' by the universe and we never truly die? I still won't be able to remember 'me'. My experiences. My very essence. How many people actually have concrete past lives experience? The ones I hear of tend to have quite colourful stories but never any clear recollections or detail.

To use a simple and non controversial example , how many of us from this site will die and then if/when we come back remember our passwords so we can pick up the thread where we left off, with full knowledge of what we said before?

Without continuity of conscience, are we not 'dead' regardless of whether the materials of our bodies are recycled? (by the way, has anyone noticed the conscience is 'con' science).

The only afterlife I could really imagine is one where we move to a different place. By place, I mean dimension, or higher plane of existence. One that can not interact with this one. Reincarnation does not make any sense to me because, either, we would have SOME evidence of it after all these generations, or, it doesn't include our 'conscience' so it's the same as being 'dead' anyway.

But what if we "remember" or "know" everything after we die and it's only on this plane-this earth that we forget. And we keep reincarnating until we are enlightened enough to remember such as the truly great masters-Jesus-Buddha-Krishna-Charlie Sheen.

Perhaps we can choose to come back to earth if we want, to experience the physical realm? Perhaps we have no choice in the matter until we've lived enough lives or become "Old Souls".

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: UKTruth
Isn't this a pointless argument in the end? Suppose that we all reached broad agreement that we are 'recycled' by the universe and we never truly die? I still won't be able to remember 'me'. My experiences. My very essence. How many people actually have concrete past lives experience? The ones I hear of tend to have quite colourful stories but never any clear recollections or detail.

To use a simple and non controversial example , how many of us from this site will die and then if/when we come back remember our passwords so we can pick up the thread where we left off, with full knowledge of what we said before?

Without continuity of conscience, are we not 'dead' regardless of whether the materials of our bodies are recycled? (by the way, has anyone noticed the conscience is 'con' science).

The only afterlife I could really imagine is one where we move to a different place. By place, I mean dimension, or higher plane of existence. One that can not interact with this one. Reincarnation does not make any sense to me because, either, we would have SOME evidence of it after all these generations, or, it doesn't include our 'conscience' so it's the same as being 'dead' anyway.

But what if we "remember" or "know" everything after we die and it's only on this plane-this earth that we forget. And we keep reincarnating until we are enlightened enough to remember such as the truly great masters-Jesus-Buddha-Krishna-Charlie Sheen.

Perhaps we can choose to come back to earth if we want, to experience the physical realm? Perhaps we have no choice in the matter until we've lived enough lives or become "Old Souls".

All i can say is that it must be a long time before we can come back AND remember because no one has yet that I know of or have heard of. You would think that those who really did come back to the physical realm and had the power of remembering in this realm would be nice about it and tell everyone else. It would certainly solve a lot of the worlds problems!

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: amazing

originally posted by: UKTruth
Isn't this a pointless argument in the end? Suppose that we all reached broad agreement that we are 'recycled' by the universe and we never truly die? I still won't be able to remember 'me'. My experiences. My very essence. How many people actually have concrete past lives experience? The ones I hear of tend to have quite colourful stories but never any clear recollections or detail.

To use a simple and non controversial example , how many of us from this site will die and then if/when we come back remember our passwords so we can pick up the thread where we left off, with full knowledge of what we said before?

Without continuity of conscience, are we not 'dead' regardless of whether the materials of our bodies are recycled? (by the way, has anyone noticed the conscience is 'con' science).

The only afterlife I could really imagine is one where we move to a different place. By place, I mean dimension, or higher plane of existence. One that can not interact with this one. Reincarnation does not make any sense to me because, either, we would have SOME evidence of it after all these generations, or, it doesn't include our 'conscience' so it's the same as being 'dead' anyway.

But what if we "remember" or "know" everything after we die and it's only on this plane-this earth that we forget. And we keep reincarnating until we are enlightened enough to remember such as the truly great masters-Jesus-Buddha-Krishna-Charlie Sheen.

Perhaps we can choose to come back to earth if we want, to experience the physical realm? Perhaps we have no choice in the matter until we've lived enough lives or become "Old Souls".

All i can say is that it must be a long time before we can come back AND remember because no one has yet that I know of or have heard of. You would think that those who really did come back to the physical realm would be nice about it and tell everyone else. It would certainly solve a lot of the worlds problems!

But maybe they have. Maybe Jesus and Buddha came back. Maybe some of the ancient Chinese philosophers had come back. Maybe some of the new age guys now, are evolved souls.