The Downsides of Being Beautiful

I like a face with character, I always thought Streisand was beautiful, Eastwood, Heston.

My husband has that prominent nose that had been broken in fights a couple times and sky blue eyes, think he his beautiful, and a body to die for, but that nose is magnificent.

Rough and rugged, is beautiful to me.

originally posted by: AdAstra

And you are right, there IS no downside to beauty itself.
But, like I said in another post, I really do believe this should be moved to the "chit chat" section.
Contrary to what the OP may be assuming (judging by the tone), there ARE other physically beautiful people on this and other forums.

Apparently everyone got very caught up in discussing their own beauty, and completely lost the topic.

There was an article in the link in the OP, it refered to studies done which indicated some real problems correlating with having an appearence largely recognized as attractive.

Yes, the topic was detoured and lost to chit chat of bragging and criticizing, going completely off topic,
but I don't think being beautiful or not is a pre-requisite for discussing the evidence of a social problems of this type.
People can talk about prejudices based upon skin color, or gender, even when they are not of the color or gender discussed... people can discuss problems like autistic savant without actually being so.

There is actual studies we can discuss - it doesn't need to be limited to personal chit chat...

originally posted by: Bluesma
There is actual studies we can discuss - it doesn't need to be limited to personal chit chat...

You really think that those studies have any validity beyond the "beauty" and advertising industry that most likely commissioned them? Pandering, and manipulating, the self-esteem of those who place their value in their appearance is their bread and butter. It's like those adverts that tell you that you can have "healthy looking" hair/skin/whatever, not healthy, just the appearance of it. It's all twaddle from beginning to end.

Physical beauty is nice to have but I know a few butt ugly sluts with bad drinkin problems that have to beat the fellas off with a stick.

The ultimate attraction is power with money a close second. Sadly intellect falls by the wayside; not for me though, I love nerds!

Yes, there are serious researchers who study this.

What I find interesting here? Is that in probably every post, on all these pages, beauty has been discussed within the context of attracting a mate!

Not how it influences career, friendships, competition sports, other familial relations (besides mate), everyday exchanges with strangers.....there's actually some interesting findings on these other areas.

I wonder why the mate finding theme is the center of peoples focus upon beauty?

originally posted by: Bluesma

I wonder why the mate finding theme is the center of peoples focus upon beauty?

Because that is what it is designed to accomplish. From an evolutionary standpoint physical beauty is a survival characteristic, especially for women. Women who are physically attractive, including large breasts and wide hips, two characteristics often mentioned in connection with beauty, are seen as more likely to be able to birth and feed offspring. A narrow hipped small breasted woman is less likely to do either. The goal here is simply to raise the children to adulthood and perpetuate the genes. A woman can only have one or two babies at a time, and historically only one of them will reach adulthood, so her strategy of attracting a strong mate enhances this possibility.

A male's primary attributes are strength (therefore size) and agility, thus allowing him an advantage in competition for power, wealth, hunting, and women. His attractiveness is in his ability to provide a safe home and hearth for "his" women. His strategy for reproduction is also quite different because he can impregnate more than one woman at a time. His chances to perpetuate his genes is to disseminate his genes as far and wide as possible. Hence you see the sexual behavior of men when not constrained by social convention. In most cultures there is some sort of "outlet" to allow men this freedom whether this is known as concubines, harems, or "a little on the side."

In this scenario women who are unusually beautiful tend to "marry up" the social scale because they attract the attention of powerful, wealthy men. So people like Henry Kissinger, whom no one would call physically strong or attractive, has the power and standing to attract a remarkably beautiful wife. Look at the male political leaders nearly anywhere, major league athletes, etc. and you will find a preponderance of very attractive spouses.

It's the selfish gene at work. The selfish gene does not care about your happiness, does not care about sexist behavior (Indeed, it promotes it), and does not care that life isn't fair. That's simply not a part of the equation. The ONLY thing that matters is the perpetuation of the gene.

Modern society has messed with this original formula and demands behavior that is contrary to it. No longer are men as free to attempt to populate the world and no longer is it necessary for women to be beautiful to succeed (though it certainly helps.) What this enforced "civilized" behavior will do to gene propagation is anybody's guess, but certainly it is itself an evolutionary factor that will change behavior. It may be offset by the fact the world is getting smaller and restrictions on mating (by class, race, ethnic origin) are becoming less severe, it may be this is a replacement behavior allowing a greater dissemination of diversity within the gene pool. After all, something has to balance the fact that people with defective genes are surviving at higher and higher rates due to modern medicine, thus circumventing the natural weeding process that would otherwise occur.

The overall point here is that this idea of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is only partially true. The "beholder" is programmed to like beauty. And the idea of "beauty is only skin deep" is really irrelevant. You may believe an otherwise ugly person is really beautiful inside, but from a genetic selection standpoint, unless that "fact" provides an evolutionary advantage, it doesn't really count for anything meaningful to perpetuate the genes.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Timely

No worries, my friend. I'm a hackit-faced bastard, skinny with 'celtic' teeth. But I'm happy, and as long as the people I love are happy too - it's alright.

Could be worse, could be Rangers teeth

a reply to: AdAstra
Ya your right this should be under the hoax forum, that or maybe possibly skunk works.

But hey I am just here to witness the walk offs. I would you know like totally join myself, but then the whole beautyfullnessthing competition I would suppose would be considered a no contest. Not very sportsmanship like ya know, so I may spectate and judge this whole beauty contest, you know somebody has to be a beholder and witness in the eyes of what and whatnot and whatever and yada yada yada.

I would call shinanigans on all this but would not want to be a buzzkill.

But anyways, what this thread has thought me is that ATS should have a "Jipped" forum. You know for those threads which had so much promise and were so going on about something so promising, but ultimately when they got going your like, "oh man, what a jip" But then again if they make such a forum section then 95% of all threads on ATS would likely end up there. As for the science of beauty in the OP, who knows, no doubt there is, that is not my grips, my gripe is that it has not been peer previewed sufficiently to make any sort of call on it. You know got to follow the scientific method here and all.

a reply to: schuyler
What the hell man? Why you have to go and be intruding on this parade with your obvious basic logic of linking obvious observed facts which tantamounts to a big duh once looked at, and turn all that into some sort of sensible sequences which prove a point. You know it is considered rude to tell people the oh so obvious. You would not want to be considered rude now would you?

Besides! Don't be such a buzzkillington.

basically, it sucks to date hot chicks because they will always have other dudes wanting them and will nearly always cheat on you. It's just hot-chick nature. Sucks, but what are Ya gunna do...

originally posted by: Bluesma
Not how it influences career, friendships, competition sports, other familial relations (besides mate), everyday exchanges with strangers.....there's actually some interesting findings on these other areas.

Men and women are judged on their appearances in the media, men and women are used in the media to sell things. A competitive sportsman or woman, in this shallow, appearance biased society, has to expect to be judged not just on their performance on the track or field, but on how they "look" out their too. Is that fair? Much depends on which side of the fence you're on. Do you think Lynford Christie was unaware of his tackle flapping about in all that lycra and how that might effect his marketability? David Beckham is a brilliant footballer, he made millions playing football, he has made far more though from cashing in on his "image" and "lifestyle". Wayne Rooney on the other hand doesn't have that option. Beckham may get called thick and vacuous, whether he is or not, but that is how he has chosen to earn his money, it is fair criticism, he put it out there, how he looks the way he looks is what people want to know, not what he thinks or feels. Wayne Rooney's face has nothing to do with how he earns his money but he still gets called ugly. It's still considered fair criticism because he is famous, although he didn't chose to be, his skill coupled with practice and determination made that possible. No one cares what Rooney has to say about anything other than football.

Now a supermodel, like Kate Moss or Naomi Campbell, is a marketing device for women. Very expensive coat hangers if you will. No one is interested in anything that they have to say either. They make their money in a highly competitive environment where standards of beauty are carefully calculated and youth is a disposable currency. There are hundreds of thousands of girls more comely and appealing than either of those ladies, but clothes don't hang on them quite so well...men don't really care about that #, only women for and in competition with other women care about that.

We all have our crosses to bear, some people need help and scientific studies to help bear those crosses, like those with life impeding disabilities. Being perceived as more attractive than your peers, when you are unable to choose your peers, can be difficult and isolating, but compared to some of the challenges that life presents us with, it is easily overcome, particularly once you leave school and are able to exercise more choice in your environment and peers. Youth is hard, whether you're pretty, plain or ugly, and haters are gonna hate no matter what. Studies that encourage a sense of victimisation over something you have no control over, such as your bone structure and the arrangement of facial features, feed insecurity certainly if you allow them to, but personally, as a mature and informed human being, if someone is pointedly "mean" to me about something I have no control over then I may wonder what else I have done to offend them, or what it is that is upsetting them to make them "pick" on that...if I value them otherwise as a person I will seek to find out the "problem", if I don't, then no loss.

Beauty is entirely subjective, has little to do with perceived attractiveness and is therefore entirely unquantifiable. It is a quality, not a quantity, and that is probably why the conversation has taken the turn it has, because for most the measure of true beauty is that which they can cuddle up against on long, cold nights and all else is just two dimensional irrelevance. I think Charlize Theron is breath-takingly beautiful, my brother thinks she is "meh", Isabella Rossellini is more his idea of perfect beauty, therefore how can anyone say that they are being mistreated or penalised for being pretty or prettier than someone else, sure it happens, jealousy, envy, resentment, bitterness, dissatisfaction etc etc however can be felt by everyone. Pretty girls are mean to ugly girls, ugly girls are mean to pretty girls...whatever...long and short...how important is it? Not very.

Perhaps instead of complaining about how the studies are not being highlighted, you highlight the particular studies that you felt were valid and "serious" and discuss them. Or did you want someone to do that for you?

a reply to: Anaana

Beauty is entirely subjective, has little to do with perceived attractiveness and is therefore entirely unquantifiable.

Nice answer Anaana...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

originally posted by: OnionHead

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Timely

No worries, my friend. I'm a hackit-faced bastard, skinny with 'celtic' teeth. But I'm happy, and as long as the people I love are happy too - it's alright.

Could be worse, could be Rangers teeth

Don't be mistaking me for Frank McAvennie though, either.

a reply to: rukia



for women:
physical beauty attracts your mate.
inner beauty keeps your mate.

and for men:
it's the symetrical nature of his wallet and the contents within that attracts/keeps a mate

What's six inches long, two inches wide, and drives women wild?

Money

What is easier to pick up the heavier it gets?
Women.

It's too bad we can't have this discussion, OP.
The bickering and personal attacks always ruin what could be a good thread.

I have twin daughters, both ridiculously beautiful.
Yes, there are 'issues' in life when people drive onto the sidewalk, or fall over garbage cans gawking at you.

And yes, there have been studies about this. I remember a documentary that showed small children choosing a new teacher. The kids always chose the more attractive teacher, regardless of personality. (No, I don't have a title or link, sorry.)

Anyways, S&F
jacygirl

a reply to: jacygirl

And yes, there have been studies about this. I remember a documentary that showed small children choosing a new teacher. The kids always chose the more attractive teacher, regardless of personality. (No, I don't have a title or link, sorry.)

That would be an upside to being more beautiful, then? More likely to be chosen as a 'good' teacher, by the class. That would surely prove there is a downside to being less beautiful in your work?

originally posted by: PeterMcFly
a reply to: Anaana

Beauty is entirely subjective, has little to do with perceived attractiveness and is therefore entirely unquantifiable.

Nice answer Anaana...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

All personal preferences aside, beauty is resonant with the golden ratio, 1/1.618. This applies to everything, people, trees, art. Fibonnaci was onto something, as were the ancient Hindu. Artists have exploited GR; for example, the Mona Lisa uses GR.

As to the social issues faced by those deemed beautiful, I think this may be about ego and how easily it is bruised by anything perceived 'superior'. Anyone being 'mean' to a beauty, really is jealous but also trying to establish their own attributes and if this is not possible, to actually work to undermine or even destroy the reputation of the beauty. When I saw an unattractive female colleague insulting the achievements of another, more attractive woman, all I really saw was ugliness in the soul of the attacker. Backfired for her because the pretty one had done a good job and in such a way that it was not really possible for anyone to claim credit for it.

originally posted by: Anaana

Beauty is entirely subjective, has little to do with perceived attractiveness and is therefore entirely unquantifiable.

Completely false. "Beauty" has been shaped by a million years of evolution. You are programmed to be attracted to beauty just like you are programmed to want to mate with the opposite sex. Yes, your cultural biases will shape what you think of beauty, but that does not trump your basic programming, nor do metaphors proclaiming "inner beauty" and other very poetic nonsense. With 7 billion people in the world you will always be able to find an exception or two, but we're talking overall here and a glance at the population will show you this is true. Women can "Marry up" a bit on the social scale if they are exceptionally beautiful; men rarely can. I've already explained the dynamics of this in my previous post.

Nature is not fair, otherwise we wouldn't have carnivores eating soft fuzzy little bunnies. But nature also provides, so bunnies can make more bunnies pretty quickly and the population as a whole will survive. Nature does not care about fairness, does not care about sexism, does not care about equality, and does not care about political correctness and freedom of speech. The only thing nature cares about is the perpetuation of species. None of this other stuff matters in the least. Individuals don't matter. Only the species matters.

Beauty IS quantifiable and objective, as many studies have shown. It has to do with symmetry, proportion, and shape. There are exaggerated stereotypes, to be sure, but the basic 36-26-36 shape that is considered perfect in females is no accident. It says, in essence, "I have a large birth canal to bear and sufficient milk to feed your babies. Come spread your genes with me." A large male (The ratio is ideally about 3:2 male:female) with strength and a fierce-looking beard is saying, "I am strong enough to protect you and bring home the bacon. Come spread your genes with me."

You still see this in personal want ads today:

Male: Wanted: Blonde female, HWP (Height, weight proportionate), for good times.
Female: Wanted: Financially secure man for walks on the beach.

Translation: Man wants a beautiful woman, no fatties, for mating purposes. Woman wants a wealthy man to take care of her for mating purposes. Here are some real life examples copied off Craigslist, two out of literally hundreds that say the exact same thing.

"I am looking for a Sugar Daddy that can treat me like a Queen. I am beautiful curvy African-American Queen who has respect for herself n others"

"I'm a great guy, With a professional job I'm in law enforcement. I am looking for a beautiful women to date n be willing to meet soon. I'm good looking 5'10' 200lbs In really good shape. Muscular build and 40y/o"

How much more proof do you need?

This amounts to "Bragplaining" When you complain about something for the sole purpose of brining it up in conversation to brag about it.

Ie; I really hate the leather seats in my new BMW, they are either too cold in the winter or too hot in the summer.