Third Temple / Ark of the Covenant, page 2

Somehow I gather the tampereing to which you refer is regarding the references to Jesus and James, which would be implying that Christians did the tampering. With that I cannot disagree. When it comes to his explanation of Herod's temple however, there is no reason for Christian meddling in that regard, and so you must mean that his works were also tampered with by the Jews. This implies they would have no issue doctoring their scriptures either. With the latter I also do not disagree. Obviously the Christians would have been the last to do the tampering in any case.

Putting words into my mouth again I see. First of all, yes I am referring to Jesus and Christian tampering. When a book has been tampered with, IMO all validity sort of flies out the window. But I said that Josephus is the ONLY one to mention the walls being leveled. It was not mentioned in the Talmud nor the Tanakh. As for the Jews "doctoring" their scriptures, the Torah is the only thing truly important to the Jews which has consistency. There were books not included in the "canonization" of the Tanakh which I have problems with considering the date and events in the period. So obviously Jews did tamper. There were also up to that point two groups of Jews...the Pharisees being the only ones who persisted. Their dogmas were rather different so in light of that, I can see why. But I can't understand why, writers in the same time period did not make note of such leveling. I would be hesitant to base an opinion on something that has already show to lack credibility.

I am at a loss as to why you even mention the Tanakh when it comes to Herod, since the Tanakh’s record of Jewish history ends almost 400 years before. Neither did it reference Alexander the Great, nor the Maccabees. By extension of your argument then, the accounts of their histories are also false.

Putting words into my mouth again. I mentioned it because of prophecy. And the initial Tanakh did in fact mention the Maccabees as the book of Maccabees was included.

You accept Zerubbabel’s temple as the second, and rightly so since, the prophecy to rebuild a second temple was made in Ezekiel where God made his promises to forevermore restore Israel to the Jews, (ch45). Ezekiel lived during the time of Jehoiachin and Nebuchadnezzar, late 7th to 6th century.

I do accept Zerubbabel's temple as the second and reject the idea of Ezekiel chapter 45 because chapters 1-24 are his oracles of judgment against Israel and Jerusalem, 25-32 are oracles of judgment against other nations and 33-48 are the oracles of restoration for Jerusalem and Israel being the center of the world, including the war of Gog and Magog which has not happened.

Zerubbabel’s temple rebuild as recounted in Haggai, occurs during the reign of Cyrus, circa mid 6th century.

This is when it began.

Hence, Ezekiel’s prophecy was made before this temple was built.

Ezekiel's prophecy is not regarding Zerubbabel's temple.

It was by god’s urging that Zerubbabel was to rebuild the temple. According to Haggai, it is very clear that God considered this to be a different temple;

2:9The glory of this latter house shall be greater than that of the former, saith HaShem of hosts; and in this place will I give peace, saith HaShem of hosts.' …

Of course it was a different temple. It was the second one. It was larger. It was modest. It lacked things like the ark, urim and thummim, etc. The people KNEW this was a different temple as you can see in verses 1.15b-2.9 which deals with answering the question of whether the new Temple is an appropriate one for G-d. Could they expect the temple to be pleasing to G-d even though it has not received the same legitimating sign at the completion of the first temple? Would G-d be with them in such a case? The report through Haggai serves to answer the questions and legitimized the temple. More specifically, Haggai chapter 2 is broken up into three pieces....the past, present and future. Verses 1-3 refer to the old Temple. Verses 4-5 is about G-d's presence and promises to Zerubbabel. Verses 6-9 are G-d's prophecies.

According to Ezra, Zerubbabel’s temple was in fact that which was prophesied by Haggai:

6:14 And the elders of the Jews builded and prospered, through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded and finished it, according to the commandment of the G-d of Israel, and according to the decree of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia. See also ch5:1,2

Where Ezra obviously recounts events at the time of Nebuchadnezzar in the 6th century.

Here is some background for you. The book of Haggai contains four reports set in four clear time frames. Babylonian empire fell 539 BCE. 2 Chronicles 36.22-23, Cyrus II issued a proclamation in his first year after the conquest of Babylong that stated, "The L-rd, G-d of Heaven, has given me all the kingdom of earth and He has commanded me to build Him a Temple in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of his entire people may the L-rd be with him, and let him go up [to Jerusalem], to build the Temple." See also Ezra 1.1-4. Haggai is set 18 years later in the second year of Darius I (520 BCE) and implies that the Temple was still not built at the time. The book urges people to undertake the work of reconstruction and talks about the central role of the Temple in daily life of the community.

But is it not so that there are two schools of thought on which of Zerubbabel’s and Herod’s temples is the second?

Surely in Haggai 1.8, G-d isn't talking to Herod. Go up to the hills and get timber, and rebuilt the House; then I will look on it with favor and I will be glorified -- said the L-rd. So there couldn't be any discrepancy on whose is the second, right? Also Chanukah is a festival marking the Maccabees restoring the second temple. This happened long before Herod.

Yet, the words supposedly uttered by God as shown above clearly differentiate one as the former and the other as the latter.

The former would be Solomon and the latter Zerrubabel.

To restate relevant dates: Nebuchadnezzar’s reign was circa 604 to 561BCE. Ezekiel supposedly prophesied around 597-570BCE.; Cyrus was king from circa 559-530BCE, during which time the temple was rebuilt. Both Ezra and Haggai therefore supposedly speaking of current events, would either have to be placed during that same time or after the fact, (which would have far too many implications on the dating of the books).

Correction. The Temple was ordered to be built during the time of Cyrus but was complete under Darius I in 515 BCE. There was a brief period of no construction.

The issue behind the two camps therefore is that neither wishes to accept that the temple was in fact built three times, since to do so would be declare the prophesies of Israel’s glory false.

Not true for several reasons. One is that the main text of Judaism lies in the Torah. The study, the weekly readings, etc are all Torah. Why? Because we are taught that the Torah is the direct word of G-d and the kethuvim and nevi'im are inspired by G-d but written by man. Also, if one wants to get technical, Moses built the first temple and it was portable.

Instead, those who cannot ignore the words of Ezra 6:14 and Haggai 2:9, and they would each do this because 1) The dimensions of Zerubbabel’s were not disclosed by the redactors and cannot therefore be compared to the dimensions prescribed by Ezekiel: 1a) Herod’s was also not those of Ezekiel’s dimensions.

Why would one need to ignore Ezra 6.14 when Ezra 6.3 via the decree from Cyrus gives the dimensions.

All that aside, there is no prophecy of a third temple, is that also not correct? Ezekiel, given the dates above, made his prophesy after the destruction of the first temple and before the construction of the second. He mentioned nothing of a third. In fact, the reason a 3rd temple is touted is because by hook or by crook, if one ever is erected again, it will be made to Ezekiel’s measurements.

Ezekiel is specifically the third. And yes, the third one WILL be built to specifications. I shall explain since you don't seem to have a grasp on it. The beginning of temple building (not including the tabernacle) goes to David. Long story short, it began with a census and ended with the purchase of the Temple Mount. As stated above, chapters 33-48 deal with the restoration of Israel. In chapters 40-42, we learn about the dimensions of the future temple. The prophecy did come during the Babylonian exile but was purposely not built to specifications as they knew the temple would be destroyed. Ezekiel's prophesy is about the eternal Temple. Here I think about Joseph Smith predicting the civil war when looking at the time period in which he "predicted," one can see that it was imminent. So if these people knew the issues surrounding their time period, they knew that this wouldn't be "the one." As for two schools of thought, there are two on the third temple. One is that we are bound by the law to build the Temple. The second and most commonly accepted is that one will come from heavenly fire and appear. To reconcile both is easy. The command to build came from Exodus 15.17 which ends with...which your hands have established. Then comes the practice of hechsher mitzvah....the act that causes a mitzvah to be fulfilled. If G-d brings down the Temple from heaven then what can Jews do to help build it? It would already be built, right? Each day we pray, "May it be your will, L-rd our G-d, and G-d of our fathers, that the Holy Temple be speedily rebuilt in our days." We are showing our avut (wanting and yearning). According to Kabbalah, our prayers create a sort of spiritual channel of light by which the Temple will descend. We also show our want each year by studying the design of the Temple during three weeks and ending with Tisha B'Av which commemorates the day of the two temple destructions and shows divine judgment. In one of our midrash, this is backed up by the fact that Yezekiel says, Master of the Universe, You instructed me to teach the form and laws of the Third Temple to the Jewish people when they shall do them [build the Temple]. Are they doing them now that I should teach it to them?" And G-d answered that a person studying the design of the Holy Temple according to the Book of Ezekial, would be regarded as if he were actually building it. Until that time, we Jews remain in exile.

PS. There are several other scriptures showing the prophecy of the eternal Temple.