I surmised correctly, therefore I put no words in your mouth. Regards Josephus’ works then, you readily submit that Christians tampered with
his words, and therefore you would rather cast a blind eye to all such works. Yet, you have not explained what purpose he would have to fabricate the
information on the temple. So another question comes your way:
I didn't say the Christians did or didn't. Because the works have been tampered with, credibility must be established. Here is a quote from the
Jewish Encyclopedia about The Works of Josephus which actually quotes Josephus quite a bit...Josephus gives as his reason for writing this history the
contradictory reports circulated either to flatter the Romans or to disparage the Jews (ib. § 1). He himself pretends not to have flattered the
Romans, though he is distinctly partial to them. So what is he saying here? That he fudges. Then his works have been fudged to force things that
aren't there. So again, I see a credibility issue.
1)is it not also true that the authoritative information on all aspect of the temple during the 1st century ACE, comes to us from Josephus?
The particular information that we were discussing that I was dismissing would be considered hearsay in a court of law. He was not there during
either Antiochus nor Pompey.
Therefore
But I said that Josephus is the ONLY one to mention the walls being leveled.
this account of same cannot be dismissed. Correct?
Considering that Herod shows that the Temple remains by way of Josephus, I suppose it can be dismissed. Also considering that he himself was not
there, sure it can. Now in one part of Antiquities, Josephus describes Antiochus plucking the walls. But in another part talking about Herod
specifically, he says:
1. AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign, and after the acts already mentioned, undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself
the temple of God, ... but as he knew the multitude were not ready nor willing to assist him in so vast a design, he thought to prepare them first by
making a speech to them, ...
Our fathers, indeed, when they were returned from Babylon,
built this temple to God Almighty,
2. And this was the speech which Herod made to them; but still this speech aftrighted many of the people, as being unexpected by them; and because it
seemed incredible, it did not encourage them, but put a damp upon them,
for they were afraid that he would pull down the whole edifice,
and not be able to bring his intentions to perfection for its rebuilding; and this danger appeared to them to be very great, and the vastness of the
undertaking to be such as could hardly be accomplished. But while they were in this disposition,
the king encouraged them, and told them he
would not pull down their temple till all things were gotten ready for building it up entirely again. And as he promised them this
beforehand, so he did not break his word with them, but got ready a thousand waggons, that were to bring stones for the building, and chose out ten
thousand of the most skillful workmen, and bought a thousand sacerdotal garments for as many of the priests, and had some of them taught the arts of
stone-cutters, and others of carpenters, and then began to build; but this not till every thing was well prepared for the work.
So you said it was "destroyed again by Pompey: and "rebuilt by Herod the Great." Doesn't the above show that it was still standing as I
originally said? You also said, "during the Macabbeen revolt, and by Antiochus’ direction, the temple walls were levelled." That too is a
contradiction. So in which part is Josephus not telling the truth? Does he have credibility at all? He seems to be saying two different things.
They not only doctored same, they rewrote the history of their Egyptian heritage into a new set of myths, and the Torah is nothing but the
retelling of the same Egyptian myths over and over.
Do you think that we are not taught that there are many stories that are not unique to us? Is this like some huge shocker? I'm a Jew and I know
about it. I had to learn it somewhere. Does it change anything for me? Not at all. My faith is bound to people and events. It's bound by me and
my personal relationship to G-d.
Oh? And the two books were removed because?
Well you know, I wasn't around in 92 CE so I can only go based on what I have learned. Those two books along with several others didn't meet the
requirements. It had to be written in Hebrew in Palestine before 400 BCE and conform to the Torah.
I understand your position, choose what suits your purpose and discard what does not. If Ezekiel or for that matter any book is questionable in
any part, then it should all be tossed. For if the author was deceitful in one area, he was likely deceitful in others.
I didn't question his book. I rejected your interpretation of his book.
I have provided you with a timeline, you have provided nothing but denial. Show me exactly to what his prophecy referred and substantiate your
denial.
The only thing I'm denying is your interpretation. Since when is there a timeline in prophecy?
Mention of the Ark of the Testimony ceased before the looting of the temple by Neuchadnezzar, in fact, it ceased to be spoken about during
Hezekiah’s reign. Consequently, Zerubbabel’s temple also lacked the ark, did it not?
Also? Solomon's had the ark. Zerubbabel's never did like I said.
I asked you to provide the requirement for three exiles before the third temple is rebuilt. A depiction as to which exiles happened when does
not answer the question.
Never did I say that they are required. We are IN exile and will RETURN during the time of the moshiach. However, I did say the following:
*The second temple also coincided with the second exile.
*Maybe because the temple periods have to do with periods of exile.
*And the events do have to do with the temples as they are a part of the exiles.
*Each temple building had to do with an exile. There are three, hence there will be three temples. It does not matter how many times a temple gets
built according to prophecy, if there is no exile, it doesn't matter. So let's take Herod's into consideration and say that Josephus is the most
credible witness to ever live. There was no exile, therefore his temple has no bearing on the Jewish people. Onias...same thing. Zerubbabel's temple
was still standing and the Jews were not in exile. So the temple building and exiles go hand in hand with prophecy.
*But we as Jews are still in exile (hence the ingathering of Jews when the moshaich arrives) and there has not been that ingathering yet and there is
no moshaich to lay the cornerstone.
*The prophecy did come during the Babylonian exile but was purposely not built to specifications as they knew the temple would be destroyed.
*Until that time, we Jews remain in exile.
*Ok here's a breakdown. Exodus -> Solomon's Temple -> Babylonian Exile -> Zerubbabel's Temple -> Roman Exile -> Third Temple
Solomon's Temple came AFTER the exodus. Zerubbabel's Temple came AFTER the Babylonian exile. We are STILL in the Roman exile. The third temple is a
part of the prophecies of the moshiach and will be built AFTER the Jews have returned to Israel. So again, we are still in exile and will be until the
moshiach has come and THEN the temple will be built. Putting this into perspective with "Herod's Temple" or "Onias Temple" there was NO exile and
there was NO moshiach.
Further, you cannot be in Roman exile, since the Jews never acquired the exact piece of real estate promised to Abraham, in which case by
technicality they are still in the first exile.
Now this makes no sense. I Kings 4.21 And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of
Egypt. These countries brought tribute and were Solomon's subjects all his life.
The request to provide information relative to Ezekiel’s prophecy or stating the temple will be destroyed twice before its final rebuild has
not been provided. Further, given that you state;
We are STILL in the Roman exile.
this next does not make sense;
Putting this into perspective with "Herod's Temple" or "Onias Temple" there was NO exile..
since, Israel was under Roman siege at the time of Herod.
Ok let me try to word this so that you can follow along. The Jewish nation began after the Exodus. Solomon's temple was built to rest the Ark. It
was destroyed. The Babylonians sent the Jews into exile. They returned during Cyrus and rebuilt the Temple. In 70, the Romans came into play,
destroyed the Temple and the Jews are in exile once again. We have not been back. We will not go back until the "time." By time, I mean messianic
time. We will be in Israel to decide that it is truly the one. The messiah will lay the cornerstone for the Temple. Do you see the progression? I
could draw a picture but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't show up here. Your comment about Israel being under Roman siege makes no difference. You fill
in the blank then since you don't like Roman Exile. It is what it is. We are still in exile.
You are an adult debating on a message board, as am I, therefore, and speaking from my perspective only, while it is often I find my opponent
is of a tender age, it serves no purpose to be engaging them in debate if they cannot even understand grade 10 language. What good does it do to be
providing definitions of your words, just so they might begin to understand the meaning of a sentence?
It was to put into context the difference between new construction and renovation.
Now I wish to draw you back to context and note some outstanding requests:
Did I miss #1? And some have already been answered but you chose not to accept it as an answer I suppose.
2) The mention of a prophesied 3rd temple.
Per my previous post....*Ezekiel is specifically the third.
Specifically 40-48. Also Isaiah 33.20. "...and I will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I
will be their G-d and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst
of them for evermore. -- Ezekiel 37:26-28
3) Why would you expect the Tanakh to mention Herod?
Per my previous post...*I mentioned it because of prophecy.
4) Zerubbabel’s was a new temple because of a new foundation, according to you, why then was Herod’s not?
Per many previous posts...*The rebuild by Herod is still the second temple. Herod refurbished it and even made additions to it.
*Herod made extensive repairs and also remodeled, thus he rebuilt.
*Titus ordered the destruction of the Temple, the second temple that had some new architectural elements thanks to Herod but was still religiously
Zerubbabel's.
*Herod remodeled, built again the splendor of Solomon and mended.
*So let's take Herod's into consideration and say that Josephus is the most credible witness to ever live. There was no exile, therefore his temple
has no bearing on the Jewish people.
*Surely in Haggai 1.8, G-d isn't talking to Herod. Go up to the hills and get timber, and rebuilt the House; then I will look on it with favor and I
will be glorified -- said the L-rd. So there couldn't be any discrepancy on whose is the second, right? Also Chanukah is a festival marking the
Maccabees restoring the second temple. This happened long before Herod.
*Putting this into perspective with "Herod's Temple" or "Onias Temple" there was NO exile and there was NO moshiach.
5) Your response to their being two schools of thought as to both Zeruabbabel’s and Herod’s temple being the second, and why, the other is
not considered.
You said: But is it not so that there are two schools of thought on which of Zerubbabel’s and Herod’s temples is the second? Yet, the words
supposedly uttered by God as shown above clearly differentiate one as the former and the other as the latter.
Previous post again....*Surely in Haggai 1.8, G-d isn't talking to Herod. Go up to the hills and get timber, and rebuilt the House; then I will look
on it with favor and I will be glorified -- said the L-rd. So there couldn't be any discrepancy on whose is the second, right? Also Chanukah is a
festival marking the Maccabees restoring the second temple. This happened long before Herod.
*As for two schools of thought, there are two on the third temple. One is that we are bound by the law to build the Temple. The second and most
commonly accepted is that one will come from heavenly fire and appear. To reconcile both is easy. The command to build came from Exodus 15.17 which
ends with...which your hands have established. Then comes the practice of hechsher mitzvah....the act that causes a mitzvah to be fulfilled. If G-d
brings down the Temple from heaven then what can Jews do to help build it? It would already be built, right? Each day we pray, "May it be your will,
L-rd our G-d, and G-d of our fathers, that the Holy Temple be speedily rebuilt in our days." We are showing our avut (wanting and yearning).
According to Kabbalah, our prayers create a sort of spiritual channel of light by which the Temple will descend. We also show our want each year by
studying the design of the Temple during three weeks and ending with Tisha B'Av which commemorates the day of the two temple destructions and shows
divine judgment. In one of our midrash, this is backed up by the fact that Yezekiel says, Master of the Universe, You instructed me to teach the form
and laws of the Third Temple to the Jewish people when they shall do them [build the Temple]. Are they doing them now that I should teach it to
them?" And G-d answered that a person studying the design of the Holy Temple according to the Book of Ezekial, would be regarded as if he were
actually building it. Until that time, we Jews remain in exile.
Relative to the rest of your posts, and considering the unanswered above as well as the issues with your argument as outlined, I give you the
following analysis;
Sorry but as shown, some have been flogged.
When one is called up into heaven, one should expect that being in the firmament, EWNS directions either do not apply or cannot be discernible,
yet Ezekiel, seemed to be firmly grounded by compass directions.
I don't know of any Jews who place great importance on an afterlife. We are taught that if there is one, then we have a promise that G-d will
fulfill. If we sit and become worm food, so be it.
Ezekiel is the prophet upon whom Jews place all reliance for the rebuilding of the temple,
We Jews place all reliance on the Torah. That is what is a part of our services and a part of our lives. The kethuvim and nevi'im are just an added
bonus.
yet, God while most willing to speak with him refuses through Ezekiel himself to speak with the elders, ch. 20;
I told you how Ezekiel was broken up. Chapter 20 is part of the oracles of judgment against Israel and Jerusalem (chapters 1-24).
