Jesus: The First Communist

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: windword

Then why did Jesus rebuke Judas for getting mad at Martha for using the expensive nard to wash Jesus's hair instead of selling it to help the poor? If it was more important to sell all your stuff to help the poor, then you would have thought he would have been perfectly happy to let Judas rebuke her for that selfish use of the nard to wash his hair.

But instead, he rebuked Judas telling him that the poor would always be with them but he (Jesus) would not.

Because his disciples didn't understand restraint. Jesus advised people to remove the excess, but he wasn't encouraging them to do so to the point of earthly suffering.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: TheJourney
Communists don't believe in religious dogma (GOD). Why would Jesus NOT be their first best Christian poster child for a communism whose espousers should recognize as the obvious initial creator: SON OF COMMUNISUM; forget the lame Lenin or Trotsky.

You can't generalize communists. My ideal form of government/society is probably communist, anarchy-communist to be exact. While I don't support dogmatic structures of organized religion, which yes Marx was highly critical of, I am also very spiritual, and support persona spirituality. And I'm sure many others who support communism are that way as well. Communism is essentially a spiritual idea, imo.

I am not generalizing them; they do so themselves by their actions. If so 'spiritual' how does this nebulous idea manifest into murderous physical action? Stalin's, Pol Pot's, Kim Jung Ung; extermination of millions of their own people that are not agreeing with the exact same 'spiritual' idea?

A concept is not a label. A nation that calls itself communist, but acts in ways fundamentally opposed to communism...is not communist. Are the crusades and the various terrible things representative of christianity itself, in your opinion?

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: TheJourney
Communists don't believe in religious dogma (GOD). Why would Jesus NOT be their first best Christian poster child for a communism whose espousers should recognize as the obvious initial creator: SON OF COMMUNISUM; forget the lame Lenin or Trotsky.

You can't generalize communists. My ideal form of government/society is probably communist, anarchy-communist to be exact. While I don't support dogmatic structures of organized religion, which yes Marx was highly critical of, I am also very spiritual, and support persona spirituality. And I'm sure many others who support communism are that way as well. Communism is essentially a spiritual idea, imo.

I am not generalizing them; they do so themselves by their actions. If so 'spiritual' how does this nebulous idea manifest into murderous physical action? Stalin's, Pol Pot's, Kim Jung Ung; extermination of millions of their own people that are not agreeing with the exact same 'spiritual' idea?

Furthermore, citing 3 humans as proof of a whole group of people, is the definition of generalizing. Lol.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

You and I alone know that Jesus was an ESSENE; no one else will understand this

Wait....
*I* understand it!!
I do!!!

OMG, a whole bunch of different denominations disagreeing about who Jesus was or what he and his life were spent living. He believed in giving, but giving to a church where a minister wears a rolex, seriously. The Christians are so persecuted, but until they can get their act together, the rest of us are going to have a whole lot of entertainment and popcorn.

Technically we were all communists by the definition, more like our ancient ancestors were communist before the days of feudalism had arrived and started conquering and conquering creating bigger and bigger empires.

originally posted by: makemap
Technically we were all communists by the definition, more like our ancient ancestors were communist before the days of feudalism had arrived and started conquering and conquering creating bigger and bigger empires.

I do always say that certain native peoples are far better examples of communism than any modern nation that has called itself communist...people have no idea what communism even is...
Hint: If there is any economic inequality whatsoever, or if there is any elite class, it's not communist.

a reply to: Aazadan

Actually, he was rebuking Judas for his greed. He knew Judas didn't care about the poor, only the money that could be gotten. In that, Judas sounds like a lot of people who complain that folks don't want to be taxed ever more for this or that social program.

"But it's for the poor, and Jesus would want you to do it!"

Just like Judas.

PS - Judas also managed money for Jesus and the disciples. They were not penniless paupers but did have some means at their disposal.

a reply to: TheJourney

There are some differences here. Some have said that religions are communistic, indeed in the convent you do not have a lot of personal possessions. But then there is the aspect of free will. Jesus MULTIPLIED the loaves and fishes he did not take the loaves and fishes from half the working people and redistribute them amongst others. There is a huge difference right there and it is peoples' ignorance which makes them unable to discern. State communism or socialism is far different and any thinking person will know that the soviet style communism is tyrannical and a complete failure. Further can you cite one community outside of religious institututions where communism had been a success ? I mean the hippie communes were rife with drugs and sex etc and I'm pretty sure that's not what Jesus had in mind for the people. Christian socialism sounds all lovely but not really based on the true teachings of Christ

a reply to: ThirdEyeofHorus

Jesus MULTIPLIED the loaves and fishes he did not take the loaves and fishes from half the working people and redistribute them amongst others. There is a huge difference right there and it is peoples' ignorance which makes them unable to discern.

He made water to wine, must've been a big fan of water privatization and wine_ing then. Your logics, newly applied.
Let's just forget the rest of his teachings for your talking-point's sake.

Further can you cite one community outside of religious institututions where communism had been a success

Already linked in my first posting.
There were some in Spain and there is yet one today.

a reply to: greencmp

Oh, I'm glad you wrote this, now I don't have to.

While this wasn't the sensational and vainly provocative thread I expected it to be I'm not particularly impressed either..

a reply to: TheJourney

Very typical ATS religious thread. You failed to make any logical connection whatsoever to Communism or Socialism and Jesus or his teachings. I must have missed the parable about how the government should implement programs to redistribute wealth. There were plenty of parables about how people freely (of their own choice) gave up all their belongings to the poor. Nothing about the government forcing them to do it and overseeing the programs. Christians I know (including myself) not only give the government our own earnings which are distributed out, but we also give our own earnings to the church to also be distributed out. That's really the big difference (which has been proven factually through tax return studies) between Christians and non-Christians. Christians are generous to charities, whereas others give little to nothing. I've seen all I need to see.

a reply to: TheJourney

First off in soviet style communism there is the ruling politburo who get the best vodka. Even Marx and Lenin said it would be a dictatorship of the proletariat znd ego would want to live under a system like that so if that's where you are headed in this discussion if you love what we have now then fine but make no mistake these elites today are turning is into a major ($@@ hole snd it's nothing but tyranny just like it was in the old days of soviet communism. Another thing that should be mentioned is that he people stod around in bread lines in ussr to get all their food and provisions for hours and a different line for each thing. Sounds real prosperous huh! That's where were headed if we keep like this admin has done and the powerful elites will still have all the money and all the power it will still be as tyrannical and worse. It's not going to ever be happy days the way Utopians are trying to brainwash ppl to believe. The thought police will be in full force even George Orwell was a socialist and wrote 1984 as a predicted of what's to come in the totalitarian brave new world. The nwo is what's on the horizon if we don't stop it and being back individual liberty and a personal Path to christhood. Jesus never preached collective salvation and any honest Christian will admit that.

a reply to: PublicOpinion

Ok I'll check it later I'm on my phone now. Meanwhile the countries being touted now as wildly successful socialist economic societies are failing it was only a matter of time before they run out of other peoples money. So water to wine it's metaphysicalwww.av1611.org... and you didn't understand my point. There is no abundant life under communist rule and the elites are not going to bring prosperity with no matter how much the Utopians keep trying to tell us. Jesus did not command us to get rid of the merchants and all live on collectivist farms and he did not command the merchants to give up
All their supplies for the collective. He did however chase the merchants out of the temple because it was an unholy activity. Do not imagine that the secularism of today will ever prove to be superior in any way and secularism is the model of today's collectivist hive mind.

a reply to: TheJourney

I always thought of Jesus as a socialist. But thank you for your thought provoking post. This will undoubtedly rile up some of the Christians on here.

a reply to: TheJourney

I would agree that Jesus had a communal mindset, but not communist, as communism usually employs militaristic force to create that society, and the leader(s) are usually exempt from the mindset.

Jesus acted just as any other member of his followers in that regard, so he didn't create any type of government system, but instead found that to be the most pure and best way for him and his followers to live.

Communal living is good on a small scale by people with like minds and goals, but when used in a government setting and forced upon people, that's when it becomes Communism proper, and that's not what Jesus was doing.

BTW, I'm atheist and libertarian, so I have no dog in this fight defending Republicans or Jesus.

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Christians are generous to charities, whereas others give little to nothing. I've seen all I need to see.

Then you're looking in the wrong direction, because me and many of my atheist friends are always donating time, goods and money to different charities. Hell, I even bought the food and hosted a homeless lunch at a church in my area, and I didn't want or ask for recognition for my time and efforts. But you know what, I bet that church gets the credit for things like that, and not the atheist who funded, cooked and served the food.

I think you have your blinders on, or that you're basing your comment on assumptions and rhetoric rather than real life. I think the difference is that you just don't hear atheists and "others," as you describe us, gloating about what we do. We don't need or desire recognition for it, we do it because we are human and think it is a good thing to do, not because it's a good PR moment for a religion.

USSR banned Christmas. Hence why it eventually failed. They took the fun out of socialism. Really it was cuz the party elites wanted more power for themselves. But come on. People like Christmas.

originally posted by: Metallicus
a reply to: TheJourney

Jesus believed in helping others not legislating it.

I would like to just to point out that at the time the only place where it was possible to table legislation was on the floor of the Senate House in Rome. I don't think that Jesus had much of a chance of qualifying as a member of the Roman Senate.

originally posted by: HorusChrist
USSR banned Christmas. Hence why it eventually failed. They took the fun out of socialism. Really it was cuz the party elites wanted more power for themselves. But come on. People like Christmas.

Erm, no. The USSR failed for many reasons, predominantly economic. When you're creating economic plans based on production figures that lower level officials are submitting based on what they think you want, you have a disaster in the making. Especially when corruption then rears its ugly head. And the USSR had its own version of Father Christmas - Grandfather Frost if I recall correctly.