It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Jesus: The First Communist

page: 4
22
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 02:26 PM
link   
a reply to: kaylaluv




Which is exactly why we need to legislate things. Because most people are selfish idiots.


No. I don't buy that myth.



...
"We have learned that it is not enough to define utopia, nor is it enough to fight against the reactionary forces. One must build it here and now, brick by brick, patiently but steadily, until we can make the old dreams a reality: that there will be bread for all, freedom among citizens, and culture; and to be able to read with respect the word 'peace '. We sincerely believe that there is no future that is not built in the present."

www.theguardian.com...


You might be right after all, but I won't wait for idiots to be less moronic. Why should I?
edit on 4-11-2015 by PublicOpinion because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-11-2015 by PublicOpinion because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 02:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: greencmp



Socialism is an economic system which denies individual property rights and awards the state exclusive monopoly control over the means of production.


Communism is a system in which the state controls the means of production. Socialism is providing goods and services for all through the collective wealth of the people. There is a big difference.


This actually isn't true. That is the hijacked and bastardized version of Communism. Communism is SUSPOSED to be an economic system where all the workers in a company have equal share and say in the direction of the company.


That is a great recipe for failure. Most people are idiots.


Which is exactly why we need to legislate things. Because most people are selfish idiots.


And just exactly who died and made you the arbiter of saving idiots from themselves?

There are any number of issues in this board where you will jump in and tell people not to legislate their morality to shove it down someone else's throat, namely yours, but on this one, you appoint yourself grand high poobah of arbitrating what is and is not selfishness and greed and therefore get to decree when and where we can legislate and shove YOUR morality down everyone else's throat.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 02:52 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko

Not saving idiots from themselves. What consenting adults do with their own bodies is none of my business. It's what people do to and against each other that concerns me.

And if you think I am personally the legislator, you are sadly mistaken. I've never worked for the government in my life. But I have no problem with laws that ensure we treat each other decently. Because I know very well that people have a tendency to not treat each other decently when given free rein.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 02:58 PM
link   
a reply to: kaylaluv

"The Seductive Lure of Socialism

Here I encounter the most popular fallacy of our times. It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just; it must be philanthropic. Nor is it sufficient that the law should guarantee to every citizen the free and inoffensive use of his faculties for physical, intellectual, and moral self-improvement. Instead, it is demanded that the law should directly extend welfare, education, and morality throughout the nation.

This is the seductive lure of socialism. And I repeat again: These two uses of the law are in direct contradiction to each other. We must choose between them. A citizen cannot at the same time be free and not free."

-Frédéric Bastiat

I'm givin' ol' Fred extra airtime today.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 03:21 PM
link   

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TheJourney

Compelling others to be and do good as you see it isn't them being and doing good of their own volition. Christ wants you and I to choose to be and do good on our own without someone else coming to us and putting the gun of government force to our heads.

When that choice is taken from us, any good that may or may not be done through its agency is empty. Whatever good is done in the name of government is not and has not been done in my name and by my hand. Those works are all empty as they have not been done by me through my choice and personal sacrifice.

When I get to heaven, I will not be able to point to the Social Welfare State and claim it as my personal good works with the tired old mantra of "I gave at the office." I had no choice in the matter, there was no personal sacrifice involved in having to give to it, there is no good work done by me.

On the other hand, the very real donations of time and money I make after all the taxes the government takes ... those are another matter.



Now I understand why the progressives want to do away with religion. You actually believe that we NEED capitalism in order to do God's work.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 03:27 PM
link   
a reply to: greencmp




It is not considered sufficient that the law should be just


Is it?

We could talk about that theory if not only the law on paper, but also the whole juristical industry would be just.



edit on 4-11-2015 by PublicOpinion because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 04:49 PM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

Jesus, if he existed, and his church were NOT the first communists, the Essene seem to have been, although there certainly could have been other communal societies before and after the Essene.


(8.3)

122 Since [they are] despisers of wealth—their communal stock is astonishing—, one cannot find a person among them who has more in terms of possessions. For by a law, those coming into the school must yield up their funds to the order, with the result that in all [their ranks] neither the humiliation of poverty nor the superiority of wealth is detectable, but the assets of each one have been mixed in together, as if they were brothers, to create one fund for all.

123 They consider olive oil a stain, and should anyone be accidentally smeared with it he scrubs his body, for they make it a point of honor to remain hard and dry, and to wear white always. Hand-elected are the curators of the communal affairs, and indivisible are they, each and every one, [in pursuing] their functions to the advantage of all.


Josephus on the Essenes
edit on 4-11-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 05:08 PM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

I think the part most folks miss withese passages is the times which they were written and speaking about.

Believers at the times were small groups of families who lived very commonly with each other for mutual benefit. Churches were gatherings of these believers to celebrate the message and eat and drink together as a larger community as to not stagnate and pass messages to each other.

There was no church as in a building with a guild name, and loners in a community at the time had little chance of a long life.

Nice it got me thinking.

Cheers



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 06:29 PM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney

The Disciples didn't choose communism, or any other such thing. If you continued to read, you'd come to the part where it tells you to be a 'cheerful giver,' and that's what they were doing. It's not that nothing was owned, but that people gave of what they owned to help those who had less. No one forced anyone to do anything, there was no redistribution of wealth, it was completely voluntary, 'cheerfully given.' In the end, the message is, stuff is just stuff, and isn't as important as life, and spirituality in the grace of God. So give of your stuff freely, for God will give back to you in kind. As long as your not doing it for recognition, or ego, you WILL be rewarded for your action, either in this life, or the next. It's an incentive program, designed to encourage personal growth, spiritual understanding, and a general Godliness amongst the flock.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 06:51 PM
link   
a reply to: Chronogoblin




No one forced anyone to do anything, there was no redistribution of wealth, it was completely voluntary, 'cheerfully given.' In the end, the message is, stuff is just stuff, and isn't as important as life, and spirituality in the grace of God. So give of your stuff freely, for God will give back to you in kind.


Oh really?


ACTS 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 07:27 PM
link   
a reply to: Bone75

No, we need the freedom to choose. It doesn't matter what system it operates under so long as the freedom exists to choose to be and do good.

People who say the government ought to "do God's work" miss the whole point. Government is not God although some people treat it that way and wish people would regard it that way.

The only person in your life who can do good in a Christian sense is yourself. All other considerations are secondary ... or are you going to call Imperial Rome capitalist? What about medieval Europe? How about today's China? All of those societies were anything but capitalist and yet they had/have thriving Christian communities. Even the ME Islamic theocracies have their small Christian communities and they aren't capitalist either.

The point is that you cannot take my goods or compel my labor and tell me that it counts as doing good from a Christian charity perspective as those "good works" were not mine freely undertaken by me.

People persist in turning what is a personal way of life into a broader political or economic system to be imposed on everyone and it all goes sideways. People persist in thinking that if someone resists the idea of having their property taken away by the government that it means they don't then choose to freely give that property away on their own. People will do anything to try to browbeat those who disagree with communist and socialist systems into sitting down and shutting up by any means necessary is the real point.


edit on 4-11-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 07:39 PM
link   
a reply to: windword

Then why did Jesus rebuke Judas for getting mad at Martha for using the expensive nard to wash Jesus's hair instead of selling it to help the poor? If it was more important to sell all your stuff to help the poor, then you would have thought he would have been perfectly happy to let Judas rebuke her for that selfish use of the nard to wash his hair.

But instead, he rebuked Judas telling him that the poor would always be with them but he (Jesus) would not.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:06 PM
link   
a reply to: ketsuko

First of all, being communistic doesn't mean that the commune leaders don't get good stuff.

Also, Jesus wasn't there when Peter rebuked Ananias and Sapphira, and God struck them dead for NOT giving all their money to the church.


16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

18 And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him.

19 And when he had gone a little farther thence, he saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who also were in the ship mending their nets.

20 And straightway he called them: and they left their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants, and went after him.


Jesus also required his followers to forsake their jobs, families and possessions.

But, like I said earlier, the Essene were communists before Christians were.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:18 PM
link   
a reply to: windword
You and I alone know that Jesus was an ESSENE; no one else will understand this or this small commune of free thinkers living in Qumran whom escaped the Romans in 72 AD.



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:26 PM
link   
a reply to: TheJourney
Communists don't believe in religious dogma (GOD). Why would Jesus NOT be their first best Christian poster child for a communism whose espousers should recognize as the obvious initial creator: SON OF COMMUNISUM; forget the lame Lenin or Trotsky.


edit on 4-11-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:30 PM
link   
a reply to: windword

Jesus called them and they went. Just like today, Jesus calls you and you do what He calls you to do. Not everyone is called to live in sackcloth and ashes. They followed Him because they were called to the ministry just as some are called today to it today. But not all Christians are called to the ministry, just as not all the believers of His day were called to be His disciples.


edit on 4-11-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:31 PM
link   

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Chronogoblin




No one forced anyone to do anything, there was no redistribution of wealth, it was completely voluntary, 'cheerfully given.' In the end, the message is, stuff is just stuff, and isn't as important as life, and spirituality in the grace of God. So give of your stuff freely, for God will give back to you in kind.


Oh really?


ACTS 5
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.


Thank you for the excellent contribution

Disproves the whole point they're trying to make, which is pretty disingenuous in the first place.
'You cannot serve God and mammon simultaneously.'
Mammon representing money and greed.
'It is harder for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven then for a camel to pass through the tip of a needle.'
'Give away all of your possessions and follow me.'


edit on 4-11-2015 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:34 PM
link   

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: TheJourney
Communists don't believe in religious dogma (GOD). Why would Jesus NOT be their first best Christian poster child for a communism whose espousers should recognize as the obvious initial creator: SON OF COMMUNISUM; forget the lame Lenin or Trotsky.



You can't generalize communists. My ideal form of government/society is probably communist, anarcho-communist to be exact. While I don't support dogmatic structures of organized religion, which yes Marx was highly critical of, I am also very spiritual, and support personal spirituality. And I'm sure many others who support communism are that way as well. Communism is essentially a spiritual idea, imo.
edit on 4-11-2015 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: Metallicus
You are welcome to freely give all of your things away. The thing is you are making a choice and man-kind, even in a Christian sense, has always been allowed freewill. I admit I am not an expert of Jesus or the Christian religion, but I am sure that Jesus would not have been for government enslavement of the populace or to force his beliefs unto other people.

In my world we are both free to give what we wish to the poor. In your world people are enslaved to a Government and forced at gunpoint to give to the poor. Trust me, the IRS will bring its guns.


You might want to read up on him then. He was all about wealth redistribution. A centerpiece of his teachings was pay your taxes, and then pay a bit more, and then go give to the needy with what you have left. This was a guy who said it was impossible for a rich person (or more realistically, middle class) to get into heaven because of their attachment to material objects.

He also very much did use enforcement, he never had actual power on earth, that was the whole point. But he held spiritual salvation over everyones head. Follow his teachings or he would make sure you had an unpleasant afterlife.
edit on 4-11-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2015 @ 08:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
a reply to: TheJourney
Communists don't believe in religious dogma (GOD). Why would Jesus NOT be their first best Christian poster child for a communism whose espousers should recognize as the obvious initial creator: SON OF COMMUNISUM; forget the lame Lenin or Trotsky.



You can't generalize communists. My ideal form of government/society is probably communist, anarchy-communist to be exact. While I don't support dogmatic structures of organized religion, which yes Marx was highly critical of, I am also very spiritual, and support persona spirituality. And I'm sure many others who support communism are that way as well. Communism is essentially a spiritual idea, imo.

I am not generalizing them; they do so themselves by their actions. If so 'spiritual' how does this nebulous idea manifest into murderous physical action? Stalin's, Pol Pot's, Kim Jung Ung; extermination of millions of their own people that are not agreeing with the exact same 'spiritual' idea?
edit on 4-11-2015 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)







 
22
<< 1  2  3    5  6  7 >>

log in

join