I don't understand religion

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Just because someone says that they are a christian does not mean that they are..
I have met many a false one in my time...

Now there is something that you didn't know...
I was married to a priest for thirty years so i tend to know what i am talking about..Believe me..

Just because i talk about lunatics does not mean that i am not a christian.....I smoke, drink and sometimes swear...
You see i am a sinner just like everyone else..

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: DeathSlayer

you commonly reference billions of people, show ONE source of 1 billion ppl backing anything you say

Really?

OK

The bible.

For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

That is such an uncalled for thing to say...
Please have some respect..

a reply to: TzarChasm

We are all given free will. That's where praying for acceptance comes in. Miracles do not happen in every situation but I do believe in an eternal life where it will all be sorted out.

Free will does need common sense. It's like when a teenager becomes an adult. Yes, you no longer have to do as your parents say but it does come with added responsibilities.

That's my 2cents worth anyway.

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

That is such an uncalled for thing to say...
Please have some respect..

But I'm not wrong. No god saved them.

Faith and reason are irreconcilable.

Even those such as Isaac Newton would invoke god for that which their formulas and discoveries could not explain.
In essence making god an ever shrinking pocket of scientific ignorance.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

That is such an uncalled for thing to say...
Please have some respect..

But I'm not wrong. No god saved them.

God didn't kill them either...man did..
This is where the free will argument comes in.

If god intervened when people were doing wrong where does he draw the line.....
Is it not ok to steel $100 but ok to steal a pen from work..
Is it ok to punch someone but not to kill them..
We can either be controlled by God or he can leave it up to us to know right from wrong.
What would you prefer???

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

That is such an uncalled for thing to say...
Please have some respect..

But I'm not wrong. No god saved them.

God didn't kill them either...man did..
This is where the free will argument comes in.

If god intervened when people were doing wrong where does he draw the line.....
Is it not ok to steel $100 but ok to steal a pen from work..
Is it ok to punch someone but not to kill them..
We can either be controlled by God or he can leave it up to us to know right from wrong.
What would you prefer???

god crossed over from being a guardian to being a monarch a long time ago. "king of kings" says it all. theere is no will but HIS WILL, and his will is law. you know what we call that? a DICTATORSHIP. a dictatorship that cant be bothered to save a few people who even acknowledged him in their final moments. he can rain down fire and blood and frogs but cant jam a firing pin to save his followers?

you deserve better than that.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: jon1

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: maybee
For myself, I can't imagine a day without praying, for guidance, acceptance, forgiveness and just thankfulness.

Too bad it didn't work for that class in Oregon.

That is such an uncalled for thing to say...
Please have some respect..

But I'm not wrong. No god saved them.

God didn't kill them either...man did..
This is where the free will argument comes in.

If god intervened when people were doing wrong where does he draw the line.....
Is it not ok to steel $100 but ok to steal a pen from work..
Is it ok to punch someone but not to kill them..
We can either be controlled by God or he can leave it up to us to know right from wrong.
What would you prefer???

god crossed over from being a guardian to being a monarch a long time ago. "king of kings" says it all. theere is no will but HIS WILL, and his will is law. you know what we call that? a DICTATORSHIP. a dictatorship that cant be bothered to save a few people who even acknowledged him in their final moments. he can rain down fire and blood and frogs but cant jam a firing pin to save his followers?

you deserve better than that.

Again.. Who draws the line..
every human being will have a final moment, So does he save everyone or just the ones that you feel for...
No one want's a loved one to die but that is the way of the world...you cannot escape from death but while we are here he can help us in our daily lives...I could write a book on that subject but that is not going to help this thread..

If you ever find God he will explain many things to you...Not by a big booming voice but by the holy spirit within you..
Peace..

a reply to: jon1

Anyway, I'm off to the bar now for my Friday night out...
We still have a good time you know..Oh yes.

I'm going to suggest a different point of view. What meaning is there in life simply to die, having accomplished nothing?

Humans have an infinitesimal time here, to bicker and fight over nothing. We learn and grow to form temporal concepts that do not translate outside of our perception. We are intrinsically selfish and greedy. I propose that without a God or unifying moral construct, humans are the definition of anarchy. Look at every civilization that has ever existed...decimation.

Our current epoch will end the same (soon in fact), not because we're without religion, but because we're without unification. Mutually assured destruction is inevitable for us. Peace is impossible. To be an Atheist is to be anti-life, in my opinion. I don't know about anyone else, but I want life to be abundantly pleasant, where society gives to itself every necessity and social relationships knit our hearts together in favor of that abundance.

Divergent hearts/minds only lead to destruction. The most important question is, what kind of life are you living and is that what you want? Life in this world right now, is not worth living under any circumstance, in my opinion. Faith gives us longevity and wisdom. Atheism gives us a fleeting pedestal existence, where abundance is decadent and notwithstanding.

I have hope only because I have faith. Without it, hopelessness only remains.

originally posted by: Aedaeum
I'm going to suggest a different point of view. What meaning is there in life simply to die, having accomplished nothing?

I say there is a beautiful quality to life without meaning. Why does there have to be meaning for life to be experienced? What accomplishments qualify as the right ones?

To be an Atheist is to be anti-life, in my opinion.

As an atheist, I suggest it is easily the opposite. Knowing that there is no afterlife, that this is all we've got, lets us be free to explore our interests, to embrace what we have, to value each day that much more.

I want life to be abundantly pleasant, where society gives to itself every necessity and social relationships knit our hearts together in favor of that abundance.

That's a beautiful ideal that I think many people of all faiths and non-faiths share. It's not realistic because as you point out "We are intrinsically selfish and greedy". Still, it's a sweet thought.

It's difficult to accept the idea of this being our one go-around sometimes because you see the suffering out there. The children who starve, the radicals who kill themselves and others over something so silly, people with crippling pain and disabilities. All of those are difficult to rationalize that they don't have a happy ending after death.
Yet, if more people came to understand this as fact, there could well be more unification to make this experience of life as good as possible for as many as possible.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: DeathSlayer

you commonly reference billions of people, show ONE source of 1 billion ppl backing anything you say

Really?

OK

The bible.

Which one? There are several.

a reply to: Vector99

Hey, just logged back in. Have any other questions about our perspective? The thread kind of drifted in a different direction so I wasn't sure.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I would like this perspective if you will offer, have you ever considered it's all wrong? Or is the idea and belief so ingrained that fallacy is simply not an option.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I would like this perspective if you will offer, have you ever considered it's all wrong? Or is the idea and belief so ingrained that fallacy is simply not an option.

Not an option. But here's why. I didn't become a Muslim because of the Qur'an, the Prophets, or my parents. I only became a Muslim because of my personal relationships with God & Shaytan (the "Devil"). I'd accepted that Shaytan was real before I accepted & submit to God. Unlike many people, I ask God for answers directly. And I pray that He keeps my eyes, ears, and heart open so I can see, hear, and accept His signs when He reveals them. Because of that, most of my life has been a series of "coincidences" that answered my questions & guided me (and stopped me when I strayed). And as an artist, many of my inspirations come to me mid-prayer, mid-meditation, or mid-dream.

I respect all of God's Prophets simply because He chose them to deliver His message. I've never met them, wouldn't recognize them if I saw them, never submit to them, don't follow them (I only follow God), and there's no guarantee they'd even care about me if they met me. I've also researched a lot of false teachings attributed to the Prophets which contradict other supposed teachings from them. So I would do just as I do now when I meet other "religious leaders"; I'd ask God to show me if I should help or oppose them. Then I'd question the person until I was satisfied, one way or another.

I respect God's Holy Books. But I also believe nearly all of His actual books have been corrupted. And even though I accept the Qur'an as fact, I don't accept translations of it as fact. Especially since there are many different translations, and editors add things into their translations (both to clarify a passage & to expand on a non-Quranic tradition they believe in). And even when learning how to read the Quran's ancient Arabic, the different schools of thought have different interpretations for how to translate specific words (which can greatly alter the meanings of passages).

As lame examples, imagine I was a great philosopher. Now imagine I'm quoted as saying "You must stand up for your beliefs". If a future group translated that literally, it would tell people to physically stand up when something about your beliefs is mentioned. But someone who knows southern American English would know I was simply saying to support and act on your beliefs, which is quite different. It's the same if I said "fight for your beliefs". Do I mean "speak up for and pursue policies for your beliefs" or "violently act based on your beliefs"? Many denominations are different because of differences like those, but none of that has anything to do with me or why I submit to God.

EDIT to Add: I should probably include that I'm a nondenominational Muslim. Most theologians would consider me a heretic, though most actual believers consider me incredibly righteous when they interact with me. I don't care one way or another. I made a personal covenant with God & God alone. I strive to fulfill my covenant to Him & to treat His creations with respect. As for everyone else, I don't care what path a person chooses as long as they do no harm to others. They can worship a flaming ox, a shattered sword, or nothing at all. As long as they do no harm to others, it's all good to me.

originally posted by: Vector99
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I would like this perspective if you will offer, have you ever considered it's all wrong? Or is the idea and belief so ingrained that fallacy is simply not an option.

LOL One more thing. I know from experience that people become Muslims for vastly different reasons. If you ever get bored, check online for why some people become Muslims. It's actually a common bonding experience for Muslims to talk about the path that led them to Islam.

We're not supposed to force anyone to convert to Islam, and a person isn't considered a Muslim until they personally make their declaration of faith (called "Shahada"). A person can only do this after they've reached puberty.

I didn't submit until a few weeks before I hit 18yrs old. And even then, I was a pretty crappy follower lol. My parents raised us according to Islam but they literally never once pressured us to be Muslims. My dad's an Imam, but he was completely hands off with it. And my Mom simply encouraged us to travel the world, study everything, and then choose our paths.

I mentioned this because there seems to be a ridiculous stereotype that Muslims are forced to follow Islam. Or that they aren't given the opportunity to blah blah blah. But Muslim parents are just parents. Parents of all demographics may be lenient, strict, or somewhere in between. I just wanted to show that each Muslim's path to Islam may be very different from the stereotypes.

a reply to: Vector99

I always struggled with all of the religious presentations of God(s). At a certain point, I decided to explore the subject outside of those trappings, rather than spend my time finding fault in them. Especially since finding such faults usually meant overlooking my own.

The first issue I ran into was.. if a God exists, it would be an entity so far beyond my comprehension that it is difficult, at best, to attempt to understand things like intent. For all I knew, "intent" wasn't even relevant beyond anthropomorphism.

So, I began to focus on what others were sensing and experiencing when referring to God, spirituality, and the "divine" in general. I learned a great many things through those years of exploration. One of the main take aways was that the label I had such an issue with (God) tended to refer to a very real experience or process. I had little interest in semantics, so that was an important turning point for me in gaining a type of mutual understanding rather than perpetuating typical counter culture contrarianism.

With this sort of new "foundation," the validity of the label became inconsequential to the idea that we are all experiencing the same universe.

I felt a bit of back story may help avoid incorrect assumptions, and may assist in fostering a conversation between two sentient life forms.

On to your questions.. I feel this universe was created through a process similar to cavitation and that we have never been abandoned as this ongoing process is part of a larger whole.

The "bubble" of cavitation is one of time and space, that is contained within a medium that is timeless. At the edges of the relativistic scale, we can get glimpses of the interaction between the surface tension of the "bubble" and the timeless medium.

In the bubble, there is a frame rate of sorts. In each frame, a vector is guided by probabilities that compound on each other, fractaling out over many frames until we get what we have here and now. A similar process to what is seen in colliders like CERN.

Morality isn't necessarily involved, though I do feel that predictable outcomes can be applied to social interactions between organisms and that it is innate to the universe.

It can be a rough and brutal place, though our species certainly does its best to maximize those attributes. We have the ability to change that drastically, but not completely. Regardless, examining this reality may be best done after we have handled the horrors that we create rather than waiting for them to dissipate on their own. If not, our perspectives may not see the situation clearly enough to state anything definitively.