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I gave up Ayn Rand for Bernie Sanders

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posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:46 PM
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originally posted by: ~Lucidity
He's a democratic socialist. Bit of a difference between that and a classic socialist...or a progressive socialist, whatever the hell that is.

World's Happiest Countries? Social Democracies



How "happy" are the homeless and the people in poverty in those Social Democracies ?

You know those governments are deep in debt right?





posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: AlaskanDad

Oh good lord, what nonsense is this?

The reason this is oxymoronic is because libertarians believe that humans are corruptible and imperfect.

Politicians and bureaucrats are humans therefore, monopoly power must be held to the bare minimum.

No libertarian wakes up one day and says, "hey, I think I want a totalitarian state to oversee and manage my life gosh darn it!"


So corporations are perfect?

What's wrong with many Libertarians, Conservatives (and Objectivists for that matter) is that they believe that some people are 'worthy' and some people are 'worthless' and tend to judge based on net worth (but religion, color, nationality can all be used to measure 'worth'). They also believe they should be 'free' to do whatever is necessary to increase that 'net worth' regardless of the consequences to other people and the biosphere.

Each and every person born is worthy, IMO, and should have the 'freedom' to develop their talents and skills as they see fit, not according to 'what they or their family can afford to pay'. That is freedom. Sure there are people who will need the care of the community throughout their lives but that is the very measure of the 'value' of a civiliation in the progress of humanity.

There are people who like people (themselves included) that think humans born are 'bad' and have to be forced into ????? 'good' and there are people who think people are born 'good' and are conditioned to 'bad behavoir'.

Which are you?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:50 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

No worse than we are...and yet they still educate, feed, house, and care for the health of their people. And they will no doubt find their way out of it together.

I'd rather go into debt for that than for stupid wars that feed the corporate coffers and fat bellies, who by the way are the ones making things harder for everyone worldwide. Who do you thing f*cked up Greece?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:54 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
Not the banks Sanders is whining about.


Well, you have to start somewhere.

Not to mention he's already been trying to "Audit the Fed" along with Ron Paul for a while now. So it's not like he doesn't see the problem or want to take action against it. He is and has been. It's not as though it's an easy task as you might imagine.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:57 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: AlaskanDad

Oh good lord, what nonsense is this?

The reason this is oxymoronic is because libertarians believe that humans are corruptible and imperfect.

Politicians and bureaucrats are humans therefore, monopoly power must be held to the bare minimum.

No libertarian wakes up one day and says, "hey, I think I want a totalitarian state to oversee and manage my life gosh darn it!"


So corporations are perfect?

What's wrong with many Libertarians, Conservatives (and Objectivists for that matter) is that they believe that some people are 'worthy' and some people are 'worthless' and tend to judge based on net worth (but religion, color, nationality can all be used to measure 'worth'). They also believe they should be 'free' to do whatever is necessary to increase that 'net worth' regardless of the consequences to other people and the biosphere.

Each and every person born is worthy, IMO, and should have the 'freedom' to develop their talents and skills as they see fit, not according to 'what they or their family can afford to pay'. That is freedom. Sure there are people who will need the care of the community throughout their lives but that is the very measure of the 'value' of a civiliation in the progress of humanity.

There are people who like people (themselves included) that think humans born are 'bad' and have to be forced into ????? 'good' and there are people who think people are born 'good' and are conditioned to 'bad behavoir'.

Which are you?


Humans are human and I trust them to behave in a human fashion. Libertarianism does not make any judgement about good or bad.

The only system which allows people the freedom to choose their own profession and develop their own talents is the free market, certainly not socialism.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:00 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm
People hear socialism and lose their minds. It's too bad.


edit on 7/23/2015 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:06 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

Yep. Capitalism is not meant to work forever. At some point we have to evolve. Those trying to make it work forever are running out of runway too, as they've gathered most of the pellets already. That leaves the vast, vast majority...well out in the cold.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:06 PM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:16 PM
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originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: ketsuko

Total BS sums it up for you. How quaint. I have one too.



OMG.

Constitutional amendment to ban big money in politics ?

Like Unions are ever going to give that up. Sanders wants it to only 'people, and unions get to buy politicians.

'Tax carbon' seriously ? TAXING the AIR we breathe. Then 'give' it too the 'people' of course only a pitance of the money collected.

'Enact a single payer' We already have that in the form of medicare,and medicaid where everyone is using it hardly anyone paying for it.

'Free public education' WoWZERS' as if the 1 trillion in student debt wasn't enough already here comes Sanders!

'$15 bucks' mimum wage? Yeah that Sanders is really for small business because that would put millions out of work.

'Make it easier' to form unions ? LOOOOOL.

'Expand SS medicare,medicaid ? as if 150 million that are currently on those wasn't enough.

Back to taking more money out of business owners who will be footing 6% of those contributions adjust MORE because of increased wages means INCREASED ss,medicare contributions.

Which means More people out of work.

Sanders is a DISASTER,



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:21 PM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity

Hmmm.

The Social Democracies are involved most of that too !!!




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:29 PM
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originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: FyreByrd

Yep. Capitalism is not meant to work forever. At some point we have to evolve. Those trying to make it work forever are running out of runway too, as they've gathered most of the pellets already. That leaves the vast, vast majority...well out in the cold.


What we have isn't capitalism. At best it's watered down. At worst it's crony.

Funny how someone say 'evolve'. When the Obama, and the Sanders are the epitome of devolution.

Social engineering the environment to suit the mediocre.

I agree people need to evolve, and stop their reliance on the state for their existence.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:29 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
He's a democratic socialist. Bit of a difference between that and a classic socialist...or a progressive socialist, whatever the hell that is.

World's Happiest Countries? Social Democracies



How "happy" are the homeless and the people in poverty in those Social Democracies ?

You know those governments are deep in debt right?



Let's look at Cuba - a poor country by any 'capitalist' measure:


Well, there is one more way in which Cuba differs from most other poor countries in the world—the tiny island nation has virtually no homeless people. There are many reasons for that accomplishment. First, although housing is not free in Cuba, the government does take steps to keep the cost of housing low. That leads to a high rate of homeownership—around 85%. By way of comparison, the Census Bureau says the rate of homeownership in the United States was 66.9% in 2010.




Highly subsidized housing, however, is only part of the story. There is also a cultural factor that helps reduce homelessness. Call it family values. In Cuba, people take all kinds of extended family members into their homes because no one wants a family member to be out on the streets. Multigenerational households are the norm in Cuba.


fresnoalliance.com...



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:32 PM
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Some people need to check their definitions.

And stop to think about how what we have now isn't working for the vast, vast majority and won't ever work.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:33 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen

How "happy" are the homeless and the people in poverty in those Social Democracies ?


no more so than homeless or poor anywhere else.....however I expect there's fewer of them....let's see:

CIA factbook page on % of population below poverty line (various years, some estimated):

USA 15.1%
UK: 15%
Sweden 14%
Norway, New Zealand, Australia, Finland - none available
Canada: 9.4% - but uses a slightly different figure that apparently gives a higher % than others


You know those governments are deep in debt right?



As opposed to who::


Here's the CIA world factbook on debt:GDP ratio - the US is 39th in the list of 164 - some social democracies are above (eg UK, Canada), and an awful lot are below (ie they have LESS debt:GDP) - eg finland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, New Zealand, Australia....

What link do you think there is??



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:34 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

originally posted by: ~Lucidity
a reply to: FyreByrd

Yep. Capitalism is not meant to work forever. At some point we have to evolve. Those trying to make it work forever are running out of runway too, as they've gathered most of the pellets already. That leaves the vast, vast majority...well out in the cold.


What we have isn't capitalism. At best it's watered down. At worst it's crony.

Funny how someone say 'evolve'. When the Obama, and the Sanders are the epitome of devolution.

Social engineering the environment to suit the mediocre.

I agree people need to evolve, and stop their reliance on the state for their existence.


Exactly.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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originally posted by: neo96

OMG.

Constitutional amendment to ban big money in politics ?

Like Unions are ever going to give that up. Sanders wants it to only 'people, and unions get to buy politicians.


any evidence to support that accusation?


'Tax carbon' seriously ? TAXING the AIR we breathe. Then 'give' it too the 'people' of course only a pitance of the money collected.


no - not at all. dunno where you get the idea that air = carbon - did you miss high school science?/



'Enact a single payer' We already have that in the form of medicare,and medicaid where everyone is using it hardly anyone paying for it.

you should read the policy in full before making such silly mistakes.



'Free public education' WoWZERS' as if the 1 trillion in student debt wasn't enough already here comes Sanders!



Um...student debt is debt owed by students.......free education means no student debt...



'$15 bucks' mimum wage? Yeah that Sanders is really for small business because that would put millions out of work.


Except of course everywhere it happens what occurs is that the poor working class have more incentive to work, local commerce gets a boost, and of course in the real world no such unemployment results from it


'Make it easier' to form unions ? LOOOOOL.


I am surprised you dont' actually voice any objection to this, since you normally express opposition and hate for working people


'Expand SS medicare,medicaid ? as if 150 million that are currently on those wasn't enough.


it isn't if your population can't get decent medical care.


Back to taking more money out of business owners who will be footing 6% of those contributions adjust MORE because of increased wages means INCREASED ss,medicare contributions.

Which means More people out of work.

Sanders is a DISASTER,


He might well be, but you don't put up a case other than whining and complaining.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:49 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
Today Americans have bigger homes, more stuff,. more benefits, higher pay than our parents, and grand parents did.


My generation is going to be the first generation in a while to be worth less than our parents due to the market crash of 2008 and the failing economy since then. Estimates put us reaching about half of what our parents are worth.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:52 PM
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a reply to: darkbake

The stock market is at all time highs.

Hovering above/below 18000 of course that is mainly due to the feds manipulation of interest rates.

That stocks are the only place to park money that returns half way decent.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:55 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

You actually *Believe* that?




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
a reply to: darkbake

The stock market is at all time highs.

Hovering above/below 18000 of course that is mainly due to the feds manipulation of interest rates.

That stocks are the only place to park money that returns half way decent.


Till they sucker you and your pension funds and 401Ks in and then crash it and take your money. Of course, they don't lose theirs.




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