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If The US Civil War Was Fought Over Slavery What's Left To Argue About?

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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:00 PM
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The Battle Flag of the Confederate Army is once again under attack. People are tearing it down from homes, pulling them at graveyards and snatching them from moving trucks. Monuments and statues are being defaced and demands made to tear them down. The popular notion here being they are all symbols of racism via slavery, the very reason for the war itself.

In that case would reparations not be in order to descendants of those slaves living today?
Also, slavery being an evil institution should be punished, should it not?

If slaves had been emancipated without war they still would have entered freedom as landless and poor.
If they had immigrated from Africa they would still arrive without capital or property.

But what about the money made from the labor of slaves?

Those fortunes of Southern aristocrats generated from cotton and sugar were wiped out during the war.
Their plantations left in ruins, their money gone, three generations of men killed, maimed or crippled.
Lower class whites returned to overgrown farms or no jobs where there formerly where.
Nearly all the industry and infrastructure was destroyed.
Railroads torn up and many bridges burned.
20 years of Reconstruction sucked any money made from the South to the commercial centers of the North.

200,000 men died with half a million wounded, the people of the South were all left with nothing regardless of color - that was the price of slavery, paid in Southern blood and fortunes.

America has paid for the evil of slavery.

As for the Confederate battle flag it means the blood of those men, men from all walks of life and even boys as young as 13, most of whom were fighting in the belief they were defending their states and their homes. Less than 5% of those fighting even owned slaves. The flag has been appropriated for many other causes but that takes nothing away from those who gave it original meaning. It belongs to the Confederate soldier and no one else.

If the states of the Confederacy were brought back into the Union then should they not be treated the same as any Americans for If not they hold the status of conquered Nation and are no part of Union.

By law Confederate graves have the same rights as all US veterans and their flag deserves respect the same as any service branch emblem. Confederate dead are rightfully interred at Arlington National Cemetery which is on the grounds of the former home of Robert E Lee. Confederates were never traitors to the US nor were any tried for treason against the United States after the war's end. Confederates were and have at all times been Americans.

On a final note can there not be conciliation on this issue?
If the very men who spent 4 years shooting, clubbing, stabbing and chasing each other can make peace between them who are we to rekindle the argument they settled long ago?

The flag belongs to them.
We fly it out of respect for their sacrifices in defending the Southern United States.
Their commitment to duty, honor, sacrifice.
I for one will not allow my ancestors to be derided and vilified.
The price of slavery has been paid and the states rights questions settled long ago.
There's nothing left to argue about.
Leave the flag, the memorials and the graves of these brave Americans alone.
edit on 15-7-2015 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:16 PM
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The price of slavery was paid for and is still being paid for although no one in any recent generation has experienced it.

People in the South have been far too quiet over this.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:19 PM
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a reply to: mikeone718

That's only what the South lost during the war.
The North lost even more men than the Confederates.
They survived with all their infrastructure and industry intact however.
Life in the North resumed to normal after the war though a huge National debt was now in place.
A debt that has now grown to something on the order of $18 Trillion.
A high cost any way you look at it.



edit on 15-7-2015 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:22 PM
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On a final note can there not be conciliation on this issue?
If the very men who spent 4 years shooting, clubbing, stabbing and chasing each other can make peace between them who are we to rekindle the argument they settled long ago?


Did we ever really have any conciliation on this issue to being with. When you combine the South with Texas (if one doesnt do that in their head already) then it seems pretty clear that a portion of our country has only begrudginly accepted its defeat. To this day Texas would still love to secede, and if they sweet talked the South then they would go right along with it.

The Civil war left a big raw wound in the south that got infected instead of healing properly, its been bleeding this # for years now and yet we act surprised its still a sensitive subject.

I would also say that no matter how any of us feel, if anything starts up over this flag and it once again becomes a true symbol of rebellion for hte south then what, exactly, do you think the reprecussions of that are?

I guess i wonder why this fight is even taking place when, much like the Civil War, the South isn't going to win.


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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:28 PM
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a reply to: Thorneblood

I firmly believe this entire flap is the doing of social engineers working through the media and various institutions..
They are once again trying to further divide the population of the United States in order to consolidate their power.
The true enemies of freedom have always sought to expand their dominance into every aspect of our lives.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:29 PM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals

The price of slavery has been paid and the states rights questions settled long ago.


Uh, no, the price of slavery is still being paid : ats link


We still lie about slavery: Here’s the truth about how the American economy and power were built on forced migration and torture




edit on 15-7-2015 by aorAki because: (no reason given)


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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:38 PM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

Excellent synopsis, a well-thought out piece. IMO, the media has elevated the Battle Flag to uber-evil status, and the movement has steam rolled ever since. It represents different things to different people, but to solely equate it to slavery is over simplification, and a convenient scapegoat.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:50 PM
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The confederate flag stands for racism, slavery, dehumanization, violence against other non caucasian races, and pro segregation, it always has and always will be bad for America. Nothing good will ever come from it.

People who fly it dont care that they offend people it could actually be seen as a provocation to incite violence. Go wave one on a college campus or downtown in a city center, in any state you will only provoke people. If your raising a confederate flag you know your provoking people and your doing it on purpose, done be suprised when there is blowback.

It deserves no place of honor in our modern society, those who honor such things dont deserve a place in our modern society.


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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:53 PM
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Many people think the Civil War of 1860-1865 was fought over one issue alone, slavery. Nothing could actually be further from the truth. The War Between the States began because the South demanded States' rights and were not getting them.

The Congress at that time heavily favored the industrialized northern states to the point of demanding that the South sell is cotton and other raw materials only to the factories in the north, rather than to other countries. The Congress also taxed the finished materials that the northern industries produced heavily, making finished products that the South wanted, unaffordable. The Civil War should not have occurred. If the Northern States and their representatives in Congress had only listened to the problems of the South, and stopped these practices that were almost like the taxation without representation of Great Britain, then the Southern states would not have seceded and the war would not have occurred.

I wish people would remember their damn history, the whole damn war was started over greed not slavery. The next damn war will start over greed like ALL the other wars in history.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:57 PM
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I respect your thoughts on this and the meaning the Civil War carries to you. I mean no disrespect when I ask you these questions.

You mentioned something of reparations and if the slaves were freed without war or entered from Africa on their own they'd be just as poor.

That may be true, however we'll never know. Do you think reparations would help?

You also mentioned the price of slavery had been paid for, I don't disagree with that in the context you used; however, do you think the price paid settled the dispute for slaves and their generations?



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:58 PM
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a reply to: Boscowashisnamo

At it's heart this is an unjust appropriation of the flag for political purposes.
Extremists always want to erase parts of history.
Thanks for the kind comment.






posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:01 PM
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Let's break this down:

The battle flag is a symbol from the Civil War

The Civil Was was fought over Southern state rights, notably to keep slaves. This fact is in many of the opening statements made by seceding states.

The flag therefore represents a war fought over the right of some states to continue to own slaves. It is a symbol of states wishing to remain free to own slaves, period.

Slice it, dice it, Ron Popeil it and try and sell it some other way...but the fact remains that the flag would never have been flown if a war wasn't fought in which slavery was an issue.

The flag was boxed up and hardly displayed/flown following the civil war. It wasn't until the "Dixiecrats" of the Civil Rights era came about in opposition of integration did it begin to be flown and displayed again. The battle flag was intentionally unboxed and flown as a symbol of solidarity among those who wished to keep segregation. (pst... segregation is racism).
edit on 15-7-2015 by MystikMushroom because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:03 PM
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originally posted by: concerned190
Many people think the Civil War of 1860-1865 was fought over one issue alone, slavery. Nothing could actually be further from the truth. The War Between the States began because the South demanded States' rights and were not getting them.

The Congress at that time heavily favored the industrialized northern states to the point of demanding that the South sell is cotton and other raw materials only to the factories in the north, rather than to other countries. The Congress also taxed the finished materials that the northern industries produced heavily, making finished products that the South wanted, unaffordable. The Civil War should not have occurred. If the Northern States and their representatives in Congress had only listened to the problems of the South, and stopped these practices that were almost like the taxation without representation of Great Britain, then the Southern states would not have seceded and the war would not have occurred.

I wish people would remember their damn history, the whole damn war was started over greed not slavery. The next damn war will start over greed like ALL the other wars in history.


Stop trying to rewrite history and make it candy coated it was about slavery and slavery alone. No one ever said it was about anything else, they said we are fighting for the right to own slaves, go ahead and look up some of the countless quotes they made, it was all about slavery and nothing else whatsoever.

People that attempt to change history are deluded, face it its a racist slavery flag thats it.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:05 PM
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a reply to: Daedal

The more I read about the war the more I see how completely wrecked the South was by the war. The entire war except 2 major battles were all fought on Southern soil. It became official strategy to starve the South and they meant literally starve them. They starved as did the slaves still in the South.

If anyone has profits made through slavery it is the big banks. I think they should fund some type of generational reparations but modest - money can ruin people as much as help them.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:15 PM
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originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Let's break this down:

The battle flag is a symbol from the Civil War

The Civil Was was fought over Southern state rights, notably to keep slaves. This fact is in many of the opening statements made by seceding states.

The flag therefore represents a war fought over the right of some states to continue to own slaves. It is a symbol of states wishing to remain free to own slaves, period.

Slice it, dice it, Ron Popeil it and try and sell it some other way...but the fact remains that the flag would never have been flown if a war wasn't fought in which slavery was an issue.

The flag was boxed up and hardly displayed/flown following the civil war. It wasn't until the "Dixiecrats" of the Civil Rights era came about in opposition of integration did it begin to be flown and displayed again. The battle flag was intentionally unboxed and flown as a symbol of solidarity among those who wished to keep segregation. (pst... segregation is racism).


And the truth comes out! No matter how you slice it this is the truth of history! Bravo your one of the first on this forum to come out and tell it like it is. Good job! The dixiecrats brought it our for segregation and racism but its orginal intention was slavery.

Why people try and make other bogus claims its very telling of the state of the world we live in. . .

Most will refuse to accept the truth of history and will continue to make up thier own versions of what the flag stands for out of willful ignorance.
edit on 15-7-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:29 PM
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No it boils down to money. It ALWAYS boils down to money.



There are many popular myths about the cause of the War
Between the States. Just as the Bolshevik Revolution is commonly
believed to have been a spontaneous mass uprising against a
tyrannical aristocracy, so, too, it is generally accepted that the Civil
War was fought over the issue of slavery. That, at best, is a
half-truth. Slavery was an issue, but the primary force for war was a
clash between the economic interests of the North and the South.
Even the issue of slavery itself was based on economics. It may
have been a moral issue in the North where prosperity was derived
from the machines of heavy industry, but in the agrarian South,
where fields had to be tended by vast work forces of human labor,
the issue was primarily a matter of economics.

The relative unimportance of slavery as a cause for war was
made clear by Lincoln himself during his campaign for the
Presidency in 1860, and he repeated that message in his first
inaugural address:

Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern
States that by the accession of a Republican administration their
property and their peace and personal security are to be
endangered.... I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere
with the institution of slavery in the states where it now exists. I
believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do
so. 1

Even after the outbreak of war in 1861, Lincoln confirmed his
previous stand. He declared:

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is
not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without
freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the
slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving
others alone, I would also do that. 2


1. Don E. Fehrenbacher, ed., Abraham Lincoln: Speeches and Writings, 1859-1865
(New York: Library of America, 1989), p. 215.

2. Quoted by Robert L. Polley, ed., Lincoln: His Words and His World (Waukesha,
Wisconsin: Country Beautiful Foundation, 1965), p. 54.


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edit on 7/15/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7/15/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:34 PM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

I for one like to hear what others think. Someone who has a personal story to tell, it creates depth and understanding. It's quite obvious something needs to be done to quell the dispute.

I think for the most part everyone would agree that taking down the flag on government property considering how we reached this climax, is okay.

But what's the next step; certainly it can't be demolishing history, what can we learn from that if we have no history left to learn from.

So what is the solution, because none of the above are going to help in remedying the situation. How can we fix the problem or attempt to before it goes to far.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: concerned190

The southern states wanted their own birthday cake and eat it as well by having a large slave labour force. The north did not want any part of this so they turned a cold shoulder. The south cried like babies demanding their goods to be used.

There is some truth in what you said, but up to a certain point. In America everyone is equal to pull themselves up from the boot strap and be successful NOT be a slave.


+1 more 
posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:36 PM
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Here's more.....


The South, being predominantly an agricultural region, had to
import practically all of its manufactured goods from the Northern
states or from Europe, both of which reciprocated by providing a
market for the South' s cotton. However, many of the textiles and
manufactured items were considerably cheaper from Europe, even
after the cost of shipping had been added. The Southern states,
therefore, often found it to their advantage to purchase these
European goods rather than those made in the North. This put
considerable competitive pressure on the American manufacturers
to lower their prices and operate more efficiently.

The Republicans were not satisfied with that arrangement.
They decided to use the power of the federal government to tip the
scales of competition in their favor. Claiming that this was in the
"national interest," they levied stiff import duties on almost every
item coming from Europe that was also manufactured in the North.
Not surprisingly, there was no duty applied to cotton which,
presumedly, was not a commodity in the national interest. One
result was that European countries countered by stopping the
purchase of U.S. cotton, which badly hurt the Southern economy.
The other result was that manufacturers in the North were able to
charge higher prices without fear of competition, and the South
was forced to pay more for practically all of its necessities. It was a
classic case of legalized plunder in which the law was used to
enrich one group of citizens at the expense of another.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:41 PM
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Lincoln himself said



I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way
the social and political equality of the white and black races — that I am
not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes,
nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white
people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical
difference between the white and black races which I believe will
forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and
political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do
remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior,
and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior
position assigned to the white race.

1- Fehrenbacher, p. 636.


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