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If The US Civil War Was Fought Over Slavery What's Left To Argue About?

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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:48 PM
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More on lincoln and how much he wanted to end slavery



3. Lincoln thought colonization could resolve the issue of slavery.
For much of his career, Lincoln believed that colonization—or the idea that a majority of the African-American population should leave the United States and settle in Africa or Central America—was the best way to confront the problem of slavery. His two great political heroes, Henry Clay and Thomas Jefferson, had both favored colonization; both were slave owners who took issue with aspects of slavery but saw no way that blacks and whites could live together peaceably. Lincoln first publicly advocated for colonization in 1852, and in 1854 said that his first instinct would be “to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia” (the African state founded by the American Colonization Society in 1821).

Nearly a decade later, even as he edited the draft of the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation in August of 1862, Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves at the White House in the hopes of getting their support on a plan for colonization in Central America. Given the “differences” between the two races and the hostile attitudes of whites towards blacks, Lincoln argued, it would be “better for us both, therefore, to be separated.” Lincoln’s support of colonization provoked great anger among black leaders and abolitionists, who argued that African-Americans were as much natives of the country as whites, and thus deserved the same rights. After he issued the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, Lincoln never again publicly mentioned colonization, and a mention of it in an earlier draft was deleted by the time the final proclamation was issued in January 1863.


www.history.com...
edit on 7/15/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:53 PM
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During the civil war my family was either living in Europe, or on the frontier in Oklahoma. I've never paid any attention to the rebel flag, other than it being a stereotype that has always kind of humored me.

But its fabric, for crying out loud. Its a symbol of whatever you want to make of it. If you live in Midland Tx, it shows that you support Midland Lee High School, which is a perennial "good bet".

Guns don't kill people. Violent video games don't kill people. Listening to Ozzy backwards doesn't kill people And the rebel flag doesn't kill people. And at the end of it all, ruffled feathers remain the problem of their owner.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:59 PM
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And oh my gosh......the North had slaves too
say it isn't so!



African slavery is so much the outstanding feature of the South, in the unthinking view of it, that people often forget there had been slaves in all the old colonies. Slaves were auctioned openly in the Market House of Philadelphia; in the shadow of Congregational churches in Rhode Island; in Boston taverns and warehouses; and weekly, sometimes daily, in Merchant's Coffee House of New York. Such Northern heroes of the American Revolution as John Hancock and Benjamin Franklin bought, sold, and owned black people. William Henry Seward, Lincoln's anti-slavery Secretary of State during the Civil War, born in 1801, grew up in Orange County, New York, in a slave-owning family and amid neighbors who owned slaves if they could afford them. The family of Abraham Lincoln himself, when it lived in Pennsylvania in colonial times, owned slaves.[1]

When the minutemen marched off to face the redcoats at Lexington in 1775, the wives, boys and old men they left behind in Framingham took up axes, clubs, and pitchforks and barred themselves in their homes because of a widespread, and widely credited, rumor that the local slaves planned to rise up and massacre the white inhabitants while the militia was away.[2]

slavenorth.com...
www.history.com...

edit on 7/16/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7/16/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7/16/2015 by concerned190 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:02 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: Thorneblood

I firmly believe this entire flap is the doing of social engineers working through the media and various institutions..
They are once again trying to further divide the population of the United States in order to consolidate their power.
The true enemies of freedom have always sought to expand their dominance into every aspect of our lives.



Really? Did social engineers from the present transport themselves back to the final decades of segregation and start throwing up rebel flags everywhere and then have people complain about them ever since?

Your premise ignores three things:

1. Black folks in the South didn't exactly have much of a vote in the century following the Civil War so were basically just forced to deal with what their white oppressors decided.

2. As a response to the Civil Rights movement, Confederate flags, symbols and memorials started popping up all over the place.

3. Groups have been complaining about #2 all along.
edit on 2015-7-16 by theantediluvian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:05 AM
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There is a great DEAL of history involved and WE won't see it erased..www.dcclothesline.com... this-flag-this-is-our-flag/



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:19 AM
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a reply to: cavtrooper7

How much play are wingnuts going to get out of this one delusional man and his ignorance of history?


"He told the southerners they could keep the slaves if they paid the North a 42% tariff. The South agreed to a 10% tariff but not 42%. So, who I am supposed to blame the institution of slavery on?"


That's not true and this BS made me throw up a little:


“And you want to know why? Because it’s a Christian Battle Flag that was emulated after St. Andrew, Jesus Christ’s first disciple. In 69 A.D. in Petro, Greece — now a part of Russia — St. Andrew was jailed because of his teaching and preaching of Jesus Christ, his Lord and Master, and he was told he was going to be crucified on the cross. He begged that persecutor not to nail him to that Latin cross in the shape of ‘T’ because he was not worthy of being punished the way Jesus Christ had been nailed. So he begged to be tied in an X-shape to the cross and the persecutor did what he asked him to. That X is a Greek symbol to CH, the first two letters in Christ’s name. When St. Andrew was on the cross he continued his teaching of Christ and all the folks started believing him and for three days he remained on that cross teaching and after three days they begged the persecutor to take him down and when he did, St. Andrew came down off that cross and died, and he became a martyr and a saint.

edit on 2015-7-16 by theantediluvian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 01:36 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals

The flag belongs to them.
We fly it out of respect for their sacrifices in defending the Southern United States.
Their commitment to duty, honor, sacrifice.
I for one will not allow my ancestors to be derided and vilified.
The price of slavery has been paid and the states rights questions settled long ago.
There's nothing left to argue about.
Leave the flag, the memorials and the graves of these brave Americans alone.

Well said.

Veterans meet in Gettysburg, 1913 (Some background on it and nice image for the message)




edit on 16-7-2015 by dreamingawake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 07:54 AM
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The majority of U.S. soldiers drafted during the Vietnam War were men from poor and working class families, the same held true for conscripted rank-and-file foot soldiers from both the North and South during the American Civil War.



“ There was no general military draft in America until the Civil War. The Confederacy passed its first of 3 conscription acts 16 April 1862, and scarcely a year later the Union began conscripting men. Government officials plagued with manpower shortages regarded drafting as the only means of sustaining an effective army and hoped it would spur voluntary enlistments. “

Source: blogs.loc.gov...

If anyone honestly believes that poor or working class men are going to willingly take up arms to protect an institution of slavery, a vast source of cheap human labor that competes directly with them for their day-to-day livelihoods, then one does not understand the drudgery experienced in destitute poverty or the hardship endured in protracted hand-to-mouth existence.

Like all modern wars of attrition, the American Civil War was shoved down the throats of American citizens by the banking and political elite, as a means to an end far outside the institution of slavery or even the war itself.

For an eye-opening perspective on the American Civil War, consider reading the Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, “The Killer Angels” by Michael Shaara.

Source: en.wikipedia.org...



edit on 16-7-2015 by seasoul because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 09:19 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
I firmly believe this entire flap is the doing of social engineers working through the media and various institutions..
They are once again trying to further divide the population of the United States in order to consolidate their power.


I absolutely agree with you on this one point! But it's on BOTH sides of the issue! The "social engineers" are using this issue to divide. They are working both sides of the fence, encouraging BOTH the "outrage" at a piece of cloth, as well as the "love and meaning" (pride and heritage) of the same piece of cloth.

The flag has NO meaning to me. Negative or positive. And if everyone would just let it go, this social engineering and manipulation would cease to exist. We ALLOW the social engineers to do their dividing! Arguing EITHER SIDE of this issue is playing into their hands.
edit on 7/16/2015 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

Oh boohoo. Let's all mourn that a bunch of people who owned other people for property and fought a war to maintain the right to do that ended up destitute.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: seasoul

It's called propaganda. Perhaps you are familiar with the term. Spin a story a certain way and it is rather easy to incite the masses to go to war for whatever cause you want.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

No war in recorded history was started for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.... It is never that simple.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 09:41 AM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
The confederate flag stands for racism, slavery, dehumanization, violence against other non caucasian races, and pro segregation, it always has and always will be bad for America. Nothing good will ever come from it .


The flag belongs to the soldiers whose blood sanctified it. Most fought willingly to protect their states from invading Union armies, still others were conscripted. The Southern states had every legal right by the Constitution to secede from the Union. The South had become like a battered wife desperately trying to get away from an abusive husband. The Northern states had seized control of the Federal government and were deriving 75% of all revenues from the Southern states.

Violent abolitionists like John Brown were trying to incite slave rebellions and were getting tacit approval from the North. There were plenty of abolition societies in the South as well but they at least knew you could not force sudden change on any society without catastrophic results. Slavery was like riding a bull that you inherited where getting off was more dangerous than staying on. Gradual emancipation would have come were the issue not forced by the war. Nobody is complaining we should remove US Grant from the $50 bill even though he kept his slaves long after every one in the South was freed. You see how selective the outrage is about this? Washington and Jefferson had many slaves, are we going to tear down their monuments and burn Monticello down because slavery was wrong?

The Confederate battle flag only exists because of Lincoln's choice to invade the South which he did not do to end the institution of slavery. Had that been the true reason half the Union army would have quit. Emancipation was a military expedient to tie down Confederate soldiers in their home states and a political tool to win favor with the European powers and prevent them from assisting the Confederacy.



originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
People who fly it dont care that they offend people it could actually be seen as a provocation to incite violence. Go wave one on a college campus or downtown in a city center, in any state you will only provoke people. If your raising a confederate flag you know your provoking people and your doing it on purpose, done be suprised when there is blowback.


Never mind that using any symbol is considered free speech. Universities were once places where free speech was hallowed, now it is the organ of enforcement against those it deems politically incorrect. If enough people want to beat you up for using it that's ok by your reasoning. They deserve it for daring to protect the memories of the dead. Did I get that part right? This is part of the modern world and it's standards of fairness and equality? The problem with slavery was lack of freedom and violence yet those condemning the flag resort to the same. Interesting.



originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
It deserves no place of honor in our modern society, those who honor such things dont deserve a place in our modern society.


If those men from 150 years ago were to see what we've become they would recoil in utter horror. A land where women can kill their babies by choice, where it's acceptable for men to abandon responsibility for their children, where men can now marry other men, where praying to God in schools is unacceptable. A country that refuses to protect it's borders. A place where their own descendants are last in line for help from the government. Where is anything left honorable today? This is the modern America they feared would come should the Federal government become all powerful. The land where corporations have usurped the rights of the people.

Enjoy the fruits of Union victory and this modern society. I'll proudly stand with those who fought for that flag because it represents resistance to governmental oppression and courage in the face of desperate odds. Read up on antebellum America and learn the history that lead to the schism eventually breaking the country in two. It is far more complex than the matter of slavery alone and if suffering is your motivation the Confederacy and all in it had plenty of that.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Asktheanimals

Oh boohoo. Let's all mourn that a bunch of people who owned other people for property and fought a war to maintain the right to do that ended up destitute.


Oh boo hoo. People fly a flag and suddenly it's reason to assault and slander them. More American dead than all our other wars put together - 600,000. Pardon me for trying to protect history and show a fuller side to the events leading to the Civil War. I believe we should all find this sudden interest in defacing monuments troubling, that's why I'm trying to encourage a conversation over it.

US schools spend a pitiful amount of time teaching about the Civil War and antebellum America. Reducing the causes of the war to a singular source is misleading and inexcusable. Even what PBS shows now is horribly stilted and politically correct in content and portrayal. It isn't surprising most think what they do currently and I don't blame them for it. I am attempting to address that here. It may have been by sheer luck that the man who taught American history at my school went on to publish more books about the Civil War than anyone else. I am grateful for the interest he imparted to me over 40 years ago.


+3 more 
posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Asktheanimals

Oh boohoo. Let's all mourn that a bunch of people who owned other people for property and fought a war to maintain the right to do that ended up destitute.



It really wasn't slave owners fighting the war, though. What...maybe 5-8% of Confederate soldiers actually owned a slave?

I'd be all over the "The Civil War was about slavery" argument, but for that one fact: most soldiers didn't own slaves. They weren't fighting to keep their slaves.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
Oh boo hoo. People fly a flag and suddenly it's reason to assault and slander them. More American dead than all our other wars put together - 600,000. Pardon me for trying to protect history and show a fuller side to the events leading to the Civil War. I believe we should all find this sudden interest in defacing monuments troubling, that's why I'm trying to encourage a conversation over it.


I never claimed that I wanted to shield people from defacing private property. I just don't care about this flag, and protect history? HA! That's a laugh. Until Southerners admit that the Confederate flag wasn't the real Confederate Flag, and was resurrected by a bunch of racists in the 1940's to protect desegregation, you aren't "protecting any history". Just promoting mythology.


US schools spend a pitiful amount of time teaching about the Civil War and antebellum America. Reducing the causes of the war to a singular source is misleading and inexcusable. Even what PBS shows now is horribly stilted and politically correct in content and portrayal. It isn't surprising most think what they do currently and I don't blame them for it. I am attempting to address that here. It may have been by sheer luck that the man who taught American history at my school went on to publish more books about the Civil War than anyone else. I am grateful for the interest he imparted to me over 40 years ago.


I got PLENTY of Civil War history during schooling.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

It's my belief that we should learn and regard ALL of history as impartially as possible. It's just as important that White Americans understand who Denmark Vesey and Nat Turner were and not to judge them but understand the circumstances that made these figures who they are. We shouldn't be screaming to have their graves moved and any monuments taken down just because they randomly murdered White Americans (or planned to in Vesey's case). By the same token I would like to see all monuments and symbols just left alone. We can learn from history but only if we view it impersonally and without imposing our values upon them or their actions.

It is this demonization that leads to destruction of history, it's symbols and artifacts. Americans should rise above the level of the Taliban and ISIS with their love for removing everything they find offensive to their religion. Current events are bearing a foreboding resemblance.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals

originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
The confederate flag stands for racism, slavery, dehumanization, violence against other non caucasian races, and pro segregation, it always has and always will be bad for America. Nothing good will ever come from it .


The flag belongs to the soldiers whose blood sanctified it. Most fought willingly to protect their states from invading Union armies, still others were conscripted. The Southern states had every legal right by the Constitution to secede from the Union. The South had become like a battered wife desperately trying to get away from an abusive husband. The Northern states had seized control of the Federal government and were deriving 75% of all revenues from the Southern states.

Violent abolitionists like John Brown were trying to incite slave rebellions and were getting tacit approval from the North. There were plenty of abolition societies in the South as well but they at least knew you could not force sudden change on any society without catastrophic results. Slavery was like riding a bull that you inherited where getting off was more dangerous than staying on. Gradual emancipation would have come were the issue not forced by the war. Nobody is complaining we should remove US Grant from the $50 bill even though he kept his slaves long after every one in the South was freed. You see how selective the outrage is about this? Washington and Jefferson had many slaves, are we going to tear down their monuments and burn Monticello down because slavery was wrong?

The Confederate battle flag only exists because of Lincoln's choice to invade the South which he did not do to end the institution of slavery. Had that been the true reason half the Union army would have quit. Emancipation was a military expedient to tie down Confederate soldiers in their home states and a political tool to win favor with the European powers and prevent them from assisting the Confederacy.



originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
People who fly it dont care that they offend people it could actually be seen as a provocation to incite violence. Go wave one on a college campus or downtown in a city center, in any state you will only provoke people. If your raising a confederate flag you know your provoking people and your doing it on purpose, done be suprised when there is blowback.


Never mind that using any symbol is considered free speech. Universities were once places where free speech was hallowed, now it is the organ of enforcement against those it deems politically incorrect. If enough people want to beat you up for using it that's ok by your reasoning. They deserve it for daring to protect the memories of the dead. Did I get that part right? This is part of the modern world and it's standards of fairness and equality? The problem with slavery was lack of freedom and violence yet those condemning the flag resort to the same. Interesting.



originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
It deserves no place of honor in our modern society, those who honor such things dont deserve a place in our modern society.


If those men from 150 years ago were to see what we've become they would recoil in utter horror. A land where women can kill their babies by choice, where it's acceptable for men to abandon responsibility for their children, where men can now marry other men, where praying to God in schools is unacceptable. A country that refuses to protect it's borders. A place where their own descendants are last in line for help from the government. Where is anything left honorable today? This is the modern America they feared would come should the Federal government become all powerful. The land where corporations have usurped the rights of the people.

Enjoy the fruits of Union victory and this modern society. I'll proudly stand with those who fought for that flag because it represents resistance to governmental oppression and courage in the face of desperate odds. Read up on antebellum America and learn the history that lead to the schism eventually breaking the country in two. It is far more complex than the matter of slavery alone and if suffering is your motivation the Confederacy and all in it had plenty of that.


No no and no again its like you ave no idea what the flag itself stands for and are trying to make up some willy nillie history about it.

Get some quotes of what the confederates said they were fighting for .. . . .Guess what they were fighting for the right to own slaves and dehumanize thier fellow human beings.

You wont be finding any quotes that say we are just fighting for our counrty or any such nonsense, its all just for slavery and only slavery.

Find out why the confederate flag is the navy jack revived by the dixiecrats. . . . They were protesting not being able to lynch African Americans and everyone jumped on board and started using the rectangular navy jack to represent the confederacy out of sheer racism and racism alone. Go ahead look up what the dixiecrats stood for, they were honest about it. . . .Racism and segragation. This is all in 1948

Just look into history a little bit and see the confederate flag for the confederate army was never the navy jack rectangular flag, it was rejected as a symbol to represent the confederacy, it was used by only a few groups, and it only became the confederate flag to represent racism, white supremacy, segregation, and the confederacy in 1948 only after the racist dixiecrats protested the basic human rights of thier fellow human beings.

They used to hunt and lynch random African Americans for sport thats right sport, little kids, girls, boys, burn them at the stake, and have parties. This is what they were doing in the south and it was outlawed so the dixiecrats rioted and revitalized the confederate flag and the KKK took it on as yet another of thier racist emblems as well, of course they killed many many more people after 1948 after they rioted, but thats how the confederate rectangular flag got its popularity as a protest to not being able to lynch African Americans and as a protest to desegregation, they wanted to have the right to dehumanize people at will by law. Thankfully they didnt get that right, thank god. But thats what the flag represents racism and dehumanization.

So you are saying all this history of racism, slavery, lynching, burning people to death alive is just a matter of opinion? If anyone is in support of the rectangular navy jack they are just in lock step with the dixiecrats, ignorantly so perhaps, but that doesnt change what it stands for nor what it means to the people who were murdered and stripped of dignity.

Some say dignity cant be taken away, I say BS sure it can, if someone strips you of your rights and dehumanize your people , murders countless numbers of people for hundreds of years people will have no dignity left.

Those who support racism dont belong in a modern society period.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Until Southerners admit that the Confederate flag wasn't the real Confederate Flag, and was resurrected by a bunch of racists in the 1940's to protect desegregation, you aren't "protecting any history".



This is the real Confederate battle flag for the Army of Northern Virginia:


This is the real sign showing how it came in to existence:



originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I got PLENTY of Civil War history during schooling.


You got PLENTY of disinformation and indoctrination if it was like most schools.
edit on 16-7-2015 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

The rectangular version which is also the Navy jack was the standard of the Confederate Army of Tennessee.

Genuine flag from the Confederate Army of Tennessee:


Source - www.google.com... #imgrc=S43SYF85Gv7dKM%3A

I am familiar with the articles of secession and you're right that slavery was a major reason for it.

What you're wrong about is why the South fought and what the flag meant to them who fought under it.

It doesn't matter who has used and appropriated the flag since, the original meaning came from the Confederate soldiers.

It has nothing to do with the Dixiecrats, the KKK or the Dukes of Hazard.

And if you think racism only comes from Whites you need to get outside your gated community.


edit on 16-7-2015 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



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