Today I Saw a Weeping Palestinian Man Holding a Plastic Bag of Meat: It Was His Son

a reply to: MaxMech

I agree with your statement that list was from 2001 and there were 40 attacks. But I am not here to vilify Palestinians nor am I here to vilify Israel . In my eyes they have both manage to do that to their selves on their own .


I am simply doing what I like to do in all the threads. That is to give both sides of the story instead of only one .



I support the two state solution but it will never come to pass as long as both sides are still attacking each other . One side should cease violence at that time that sides world support will grow immeasurably .

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: MaxMech
I support the two state solution but it will never come to pass as long as both sides are still attacking each other . One side should cease violence at that time that sides world support will grow immeasurably .

Since you are that : "as long as both sides are still attacking each other"

Take notice that one side is permanently attacking the other with siege, blockade and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Not to mention all the racist treatment, persecution and ad hoc imprisonment of Palestinians in Israel territory.

The other side, unfortunately, gets (?) some fireworks to shoot against the only one benefiting from all this process. I wonder..

a reply to: voyger2

I am well aware of your statement and the reasons behind the conflict in Israel. In reality I'm sure I'm much more knowledgeable than you on the subject I've been watching it for 40 years .

One of those "villains" is the consequence of the perpetuating actions of oppression, siege, occupation and murder from the other "Villain". It's tim

And that villain has a history of purposely targeting civilians including women and children to prove their political point .
Israel bombs in retaliation far too aggressively. The problem we're having in this discussion is that I am a free thinking adult I can admit to both sides errors .

When you see both sides errors it is much easier to bring the discussion up for clear and honest debate . When the suffering is brought up only on one side it prejudiced's the issues and stores sympathy .

As I've repeated, the violence should end from both sides . I see people tediously defending Palestinian violence and condemning Israeli violence. The side that renounces violence and seeks a peaceful resolution will gain the worlds favor. The problem is this is the Middle East which has never had a moment without conflict in history.

Keeping in mind nonviolence I will sum up my opposition to Israel .

The correct way to protest to gain rights in the 21st Century is the peaceful protest .

Maybe it's just me .......

But......,

I would rather side with Mahatma Gandi than I would Boko Haram.

originally posted by: voyger2

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: MaxMech
I support the two state solution but it will never come to pass as long as both sides are still attacking each other . One side should cease violence at that time that sides world support will grow immeasurably .

Since you are that : "as long as both sides are still attacking each other"

Take notice that one side is permanently attacking the other with siege, blockade and illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Not to mention all the racist treatment, persecution and ad hoc imprisonment of Palestinians in Israel territory.

The other side, unfortunately, gets (?) some fireworks to shoot against the only one benefiting from all this process. I wonder..

I will acknowledge that both sides have been at war since 1948 will you?


As for the last part I highlighted. That is one of the biggest lies perpetuated in attempt to justify violence . They also shoot military grade mortars at Israel those are not fireworks . To date rockets and mortars have killed 50 people in Israel and wounded 1900 . Personally I don't like to keep score on violence I just call it what it is .

Today I Saw a Weeping Israeli Man Holding a Plastic Bag of Meat: It Was His Son

a reply to: Greathouse

I acknowledge this isn't WAR its an extermination. And one side still permanently attacks the other with the siege, blockade illegal occupation, racist treatment, persecution and ad hoc imprisonment.

Since you're on numbers count this:



List of Irgun attacks 1937-1948


list of massacres

The major task of the American or the Palestinian or the Israeli intellectual of the left is to reveal the disparity between the so-called two sides, which appear to be rhetorically and ideologically to be in perfect balance, but are not in fact. To reveal that there is an oppressed and an oppressor, a victim and a victimizer, and unless we recognize that, we’re nowhere.

a reply to: voyger2

You must not of read my post I'm not into the numbers I'm into fairness in discussions . I repeatedly stated over and over that Israel is aggressive and I don't approve of it. Everyone of your comments comes back with justification for Palestinians attacks on Israeli civilians .


So I will ask you, do approve of Palestinians putting on suicide bombs and blowing up innocent IsraelI Civilians because of what their government is doing ?

a reply to: Greathouse

Just a reminder both sides have a long and bloody history and they both need to apply peaceful tactics .

^^^ That is the mindless "tit for tat" crap that does nothing but fuel resentment. Yes, both sides have a long and bloody history but, to discuss the "effects" does nothing to help prevent the cause.

From the OP link:

I was in Israel last year with Mary. Her sister works for UNWRA in Jerusalem. Showing us round were a Palestinian – Shadi, who is her sister’s husband and a professional guide – and Oren Jacobovitch, an Israeli Jew, an ex-major from the IDF who left the service under a cloud for refusing to beat up Palestinians.

Between the two of them we got to see some harrowing things – Palestinian houses hemmed in by wire mesh and boards to prevent settlers throwing # and piss and used sanitary towels at the inhabitants; Palestinian kids on their way to school being beaten by Israeli kids with baseball bats to parental applause and laughter; a whole village evicted and living in caves while three settler families moved onto their land; an Israeli settlement on top of a hill diverting its sewage directly down onto Palestinian farmland below; The Wall; the checkpoints… and all the endless daily humiliations. I kept thinking, “Do Americans really condone this? Do they really think this is OK? Or do they just not know about it?”.

...both sides have a long and bloody history, but one side suffers more endless daily humiliations. Peace tactic #101.

So, you go and post an article from 2001 to counter an episode that took place in 2014 as "tit for tat crap" as a "reminder". I would like to believe most people seek resolution and peace in the "Holy Land", but when we have people attempting to poorly keep score, it causes more smoke where there is already fire.

Bloody hell, instead of expressing empathy for a man forced to carry the body parts of his three year old son or having human waste diverted into your yard, and acknowledging how cruel and unusual that is for any human to experience, you attempt to diminish or condone that experience with mud-slinging - re: your link.

You should read the article with an unbiased mind and empathetic heart. I don't know how any one can choose sides. There is only one side: Humanity's side.

Don't be shy....read it!

www.independent.co.uk...

originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: voyger2
So I will ask you, do approve of Palestinians putting on suicide bombs and blowing up innocent IsraelI Civilians because of what their government is doing ?

Of course I won't approve that. They should be all brought to justice.

Let me point it out, that the root of the problem, maintains. It is Illegal Occupation, Siege, Racism, Blockade, persecution of a native People, for about 70 years. End that permanent and inhuman attack to the freedom of Palestinians and Israel will have peace and support of all nations.

by the way listen to Involutionist
www.independent.co.uk...

a reply to: Skid Mark

It never will end. Call it original sin. Call it physics. Call it chaos. Call it whatever you want. It never ends. It never changes. But you know the Palestinians are not blameless in this exchange. Tens of thousands of missile/rocket strikes and suicide bombings upon Israel citizens. Can you imagine growing up in Israel with sirens warning of rocket attacks? Or can you imagine suicide attacks being a routine thing? Israel is being attacked from all sides. If the USA was Israel, it'd be WW3 on all sides. Quite to the contrary, Israel attempts to exercise restraint, but both internal and external pressures prevent peace.

Israel is considerably more capable than the militants/terrorists in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, but given there's a lot of hostility in neighboring countries and potentially weapon smuggling operations, there's always a danger, so they always have to be prepared. They're blamed for disproportionate responses and illegal settlements in the West Bank, but they're a country attempting to maintain national security admist constant terrorism and threats. I doubt any country in their position could do better. The constant violence affects both sides of this war.

www.johnstonsarchive.net - Summary of Terrorist Attacks in Israel...
en.wikipedia.org - Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel...

a reply to: voyger2
Are you saying Israel doesn't belong there? Are you saying Jews are persecuting Jews? Or are you saying only Palestinians are native peoples? How're Jews then persecuting Palestinians? You know it was the ARab nations--Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq--whom attacked after the declaration of Israel. During that time, many Arabs in Israel were expelled from Israel or fled. Jews also fled or were expelled from Arab countries. The divide existed early and grew. But to say it was Israel alone that persecuted is incorrect, since it was happening on both sides at least as early as 1920. The conflict was complicated and fueld by nationalism/intolerance.

Quotes below are from this link:
en.wikipedia.org - Arab–Israeli conflict...

The conflict has origins in the nationalism which built up in Jewish and Arab populations in the time before and after the start of the 20th century--which later leads to their pursuit of nation-state clashing with each other in the region of Mandatory Palestine:

The roots of the modern Arab–Israeli conflict lie in the rise of Zionism and the reactionary Arab nationalism that arose in response to Zionism towards the end of the 19th century. Territory regarded by the Jewish people as their historical homeland is also regarded by the Pan-Arab movement as historically and presently belonging to the Palestinian Arabs. Before World War I, the Middle East, including Palestine (later Mandatory Palestine), had been under the control of the Ottoman Empire for nearly 400 years. During the closing years of their empire, the Ottomans began to espouse their Turkish ethnic identity, asserting the primacy of Turks within the empire, leading to discrimination against the Arabs.[20] The promise of liberation from the Ottomans led many Jews and Arabs to support the allied powers during World War I, leading to the emergence of widespread Arab nationalism. Both Arab nationalism and Zionism had their formulative beginning in Europe. The Zionist Congress was established in Basel in 1897, while the "Arab Club" was established in Paris in 1906.

The Jews soon received more support from the powers that be:

In 1917, Palestine was conquered by the British forces (including the Jewish Legion). The British government issued the Balfour Declaration, which stated that the government viewed favorably "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" but "that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine". The Declaration was issued as a result of the belief of key members of the government, including Prime Minister David Lloyd George, that Jewish support was essential to winning the war; however, the declaration caused great disquiet in the Arab world.[21] After the war, the area came under British rule as the British Mandate of Palestine. The area mandated to the British in 1923 included what is today Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Transjordan eventually was carved into a separate British protectorate – the Emirate of Transjordan, which gained an autonomous status in 1928 and achieved complete independence in 1946 with the approval by the United Nations of the end of the British Mandate.

Despite Britain's promise of fairness and later promises from the powers that be, the arabs and jews kept bludgeoning each other anyway. Hatred for each other boiled over and keeps on. Maybe it was always hot, just tempered by previous rulers who kept a tight lid on it.

I can't help but agree with Brian on most of what he says, assuming it's true. The Palestinians are not blameless, neither are the Arab states nearby. But racism/abuse/etc are wrong wherever they're. I'm just unsure what the answer is, since to me this whole thing is like a s****storm. I commend him for being there and telling people what's going on.

Saying nothing can be done because it's religious or genetic or fundamental to the universe or existence isn't appropriate, so I'm sorry for saying that. Things can be done. Racism/abuse/etc don't have to be tolerated.

Have you noticed that as this country's division widens and deepens, the USA, there has been an upsurge of recent hatred ? It's everywhere, North verses South, black verses white. Nearly every forum or comment section in the major news like Yahoo or MSN is loaded with Hatred, vile name calling and anything that can get past the censors...

Well guess what.... it's manifesting here on Above Top Secret as well. It's not entertaining to be sure, and is not "Denying ignorance".

Israel will become a burdensome stone, and will suffer near complete destruction before GOD intervenes, It is His Chosen People................. Now that's biblical, it has been written.

And to the Victors go the Spoils, as in the 6 day war...... remember they were attacked and then ended winning the battle and a substantial piece of ground. as you guessed, I am Pro Israel.

The child in the body bag was no different than Israelis getting blown to smithereens, just a different corpse, just as viciously destroyed by weapons of war, or homebuilt as in some cases.

SO......... what would happen if the arms suppliers dried to ZERO...... on Both sides...?
Oh there's plenty of blame to go around, The West, China and Russia. All profiteers in this struggle.

a reply to: ugmold

How many people have to die for there to be peace?

How many people have to die for both sides to recognize each other?

How many people have to die before the people decide enough is enough?

How many people have to die in the name of religion?

How many people have to die due to racism?

How many people have to die just to make room for the next generation?

None of these questions can be answers, because there is no answer. That region doesn't care about each other, or who actually dies.

a reply to: NavyDoc


That may be so but to use it around civilians, is not the smartest move.
Then again nuking and fire bombing civilians is way worse.

Very few countries can claim the moral high ground when it comes to their military activities in the last 100 years, maybe Switzerland and Costa Rica.

a reply to: ugmold

Stop launching rockets into Israeli and live in peace side by side.

a reply to: ugmold

Israel repeatedly violates the Geneva Conventions by:

Targeting, killing, and collectively punishing non-combatant men, women and children
Moving its own population into an occupied zone
Imposing unnecessary curfews and closures
Exercising disproportionate use of force

Israel defies international law and hundreds of U.N. resolutions by:

Refusing to end over 40 years of military occupation
Expanding and adding Israeli settlements
Building the Apartheid Wall to take over Palestinian land and water resources
Denying the right of return for millions of Palestinian refugees

And then they are suprised when people start resisting? Or are they happy people start resisting?
So they can test their new weapons and sell them to other countries labeled as "tested and approved'?
Only ignorant people deny Isreal's crimes.

a reply to: Vector99

No. No, it doesn't, does it?

In my more pessimistic moments, which come fairly often these days, I think the only way peace comes to the ME, and the world in general, is when they've all killed each other.

Then it'll be quiet and peaceful, with but the sound of the desert winds blowing over the graves. Not what we want maybe, but what we're going to get, and maybe, just maybe, what we deserve...

See? Pessimistic.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Vector99

No. No, it doesn't, does it?

In my more pessimistic moments, which come fairly often these days, I think the only way peace comes to the ME, and the world in general, is when they've all killed each other.

Then it'll be quiet and peaceful, with but the sound of the desert winds blowing over the graves. Not what we want maybe, but what we're going to get, and maybe, just maybe, what we deserve...

See? Pessimistic.

That's the only way to solve the Israeli palistinian problem. Negotiations have been attempted for decades. It's gotten to the point now no one even tries anymore. It's just going to continue Isreal attacks Palistinians and for an attack they made. Then Palistinians attack Israelis for that attack. There is no way to change this pattern both sides are to stubborn

a reply to: ugmold

Desperate to keep radicals in the fight, the US recently accused Assad of supporting ISIS in the toppling of his own country, a major narrative shift which aims to shape public opinion.