Caitlyn is a woman; Rachel is black; what do you want to be?

a reply to: Dfairlite

I get enjoyment out of saying Transgender is not a Mental Illness? sigh, i'm not Transgender, but i am Gay and Genderfluid, but okay sure i get enjoyment out of watching people from my own community suffer, you're the Nancy drew of the internet because you found me out

If someone got in an accident, and got plastic surgery to fix something is that a mental illness?

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Dfairlite

I get enjoyment out of saying Transgender is not a Mental Illness? sigh, i'm not Transgender, but i am Gay and Genderfluid, but okay sure i get enjoyment out of watching people from my own community suffer, you're the Nancy drew of the internet because you found me out

If someone got in an accident, and got plastic surgery to fix something is that a mental illness?

Restoring something to it's intended appearance and function is not at all the same as removing something that is healthy and functional.

Now if you get into the case of people who disfigure themselves through plastic surgery, then yes, that's a mental illness. It's called body dysmorphic disorder.

a reply to: Dfairlite

Not sure, but they may change their stance on BIID as being a neurological disorder, rather than a mental disorder.

www.medicaldaily.com...

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Dfairlite

Not sure, but they may change their stance on BIID as being a neurological disorder, rather than a mental disorder.

www.medicaldaily.com...

That's very good news! Hopefully a cure is found soon!

I'm out of here for the day, hope you all have an enjoyable fathers day!

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE

originally posted by: grandmakdw
originally posted by: grandmakdw
originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

There is no resolution.

I was posting the science, if science fact is bias than are we now to reject science as old fashioned and biased if we don't agree - have an idea or feeling that opposes with it?

The science says that one can not change their biology from male to female, if they die and decompose a scientist will always reconstruct them as male. So at the molecular level they will always be male. That is not bias or being mean, it is actually being objective.

I am amazed at the people who think that simply stating the science behind transgenderism is being a bigoted dinosaur.
Yet the very same people say science in other threads have emphatically insisted that science always trumps religion (an idea, a feeling).

I accept the transgendered, but if one accepts the transgendered, one MUST by logical extension accept the transracial and transpecies. If feelings trump science then one MUST accept anything that anyone decides they are without question.


Because the transracial trasspecies really feel they are another race/species, they go through transformation to look like the other race/species and honestly and genuinely feel like they are something they are not on the biological level.

I have repeatedly stated that transgender who go about it quietly and with dignity are to be accepted because they are being honest and not doing it for the publicity/money/reality TV show etc. But doing it because they genuinely feel that is who they are.

But one can NOT say transgender is ok, but transracial is not acceptable, that is being intellectually dishonest.

I am not proposing any solution except that if one accepts transgender as ok and normal, then by extension we MUST accept transracial and transspecies as ok and normal - because both transformations are based on how one feels, not by any science. If society decides that how one feels is the highest value, then one must also accept that all religious feelings trump any science.
Society has to decide and must think of the implications of each.

I know you don't believe me, but honestly I don't care if you are transgendered, as long as you don't run around telling everyone proudly "I used to be a man" and making certain the entire world knows. OR go into a womans open dressing room and run around with a penis and testicles in full view of everyone and claim one has to be accepted as a woman, instead of being modest and not running around nude with a penis and testicles showing in front of women and girls (as a transgender did at a gym).

As far as some of the people who responded with insults, I have become familiar with them, and they often claim that science is the highest value as far as making decisions, but here they throw insults and say feelings negate science, which is disingenuous.

Solution, there isn't one. And really if one is transgender, I don't want to know, be modest and be fully female and be fully who you say you are and it is no one elses business and live in peace with all. That is my solution, just fully be who you think you are and you will be accepted and thought of as who you think you are. If one feels they are hiding something by being fully female and with a fully female identity and think everyone has to know they were (are) also male, then I have questions about their female identity. Not that they have to hide it, but if one goes about their life living fully and completely as a female and doesn't show off their penis in public restrooms or changing rooms, or feel they must tell everyone they are a genetic male, then live in peace. If that is biased or mean, then so be it.

Grandma...I've been down the science road with people like these. You're not going to get your point through. They seem to believe what they believe and science, DNA, etc. makes no difference to them. Kind of backs up the possible mental problems associated with the syndrome, but that is another discussion for somewhere else far from people who would argue that the sky isn't blue and the grass isn't green if it furthers their delusion. If it makes you feel any better...you are correct.

Thanks, I have noticed that people say "my" science
is wrong when it challenges their popularly held belief systems.

It is frustrating because having taught human development
in several major and one nearly ivy league university,
I know "my" actually THE science is correct.

But no matter what science is presented,
if it challenges popular notions
people will say I am wrong
when I present the truth and say I am a bigot,
no matter how dispassionately I present the truth.

If one pays attention,
and it looks like you have.

People who fully buy into
the deity of popular culture
and the worship of political correctness and

suppression of speech/thought because it may hurt someone's feelings

are so emotionally entangled in their worship of the popularly correct

that logic, reason, and fact are denied
because they challenge
their faith of politically correctness
and so they encourage/nay demand suppression of speech/thought
to achieve the conversion of the non-believers
into becoming politically correct
regardless of the science, research or truth.

Right now anything to do with non-heterosexual "traditional" sexuality
is supposed to be celebrated, applauded and encouraged
and approved of by everyone.

And if you don't approve of glorifying,
promoting and encouraging what they think is right,
then your speech is hateful and you are branded a bigot,
and your ideas should not be spoken in any public arena
and your rights to your thoughts
are to be ridiculed,
until

you come into the fold of their worship
of the popular culture
and of political correctness.

I call it a religion
because all science and research
and facts are ignored
in favor
of popular culture and
any and all current politically correct belief systems.
All people are going on is faith
that the popular culture is always right
with political correctness as the guiding principle
(ie 10 commandments) of that culture.

double post by accident

originally posted by: Dfairlite
I'm out of here for the day, hope you all have an enjoyable fathers day!

Thanks for your insightful postings. I appreciated the links and your reasoning.

I had to step out of the thread due to personal reasons for a few days and am checking back in to see what is going on.

Please see my above post. Think you'll agree with me.

a reply to: grandmakdw

No offense... or i don't mean this is a pointed way.. saying i enjoy people from my community suffering because i say Transgender, or anyone under the GLBTQ umbrella is not a Mental Illness... that is considered a Quality post?

a reply to: grandmakdw

You are so funny

It is frustrating because having taught human development
in several major and one nearly ivy league university,
I know "my" actually THE science is correct

I bet you are a pill to be around in RL! lol. Never, under any circumstances, admit defeat! Whew!
I actually feel kinda sorry for you, because I bet it's hard to be you! You're a bull-headed ole girl. Like my own Gram used to say "You want to be RIGHT, or you want to be happy". (Just sayin' , not that you pay attention to anything anybody says, but that's your way, I guess.

Toodles!

a reply to: grandmakdw

Its cute that you think that teaching human development gives you enough grounding in related matters to poo poo transgenderism and alternative lifestyle choices besides that too.

It's also patently false, since there is more to this issue than mere psychology. Now, if you were a NEUROLOGIST, I might take some notice...

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: grandmakdw

Its cute that you think that teaching human development gives you enough grounding in related matters to poo poo transgenderism and alternative lifestyle choices besides that too.

It's also patently false, since there is more to this issue than mere psychology. Now, if you were a NEUROLOGIST, I might take some notice...

Nope, it doesn't matter if she has a doctorate from Harvard or Oxford. None of that is pertinent here, but she just doesn't get it. Poor thing. But yes, star for you! Somehow it occurs to her that if she crams her credentials down our throats enough, we will realize that we MUST LISTEN TO HER! lol.

So much stupid here, it hurts my head.

I have no idea where to begin or why I should even bother to help people deny ignorance. Closed minds aren't going to change with anything I could say but I won't resort to picking and choosing junk statistics or studies that go against the prevailing medical view nor will I discount the narratives of those that know what they're talking about. I've listened to both sides of this argument, the ignorance and rhetoric is baffling. I would have called it a discussion but clearly it is not. Grandmakdw says "I call it religion because all science and research facts are ignored". How ironic it is to ascribe this attribute to the LBGQ TG and particularly TS community when just the opposite is clearly true.

I do not speak for those under the transgender umbrella for I am not but I am a woman with a distant past history of gender dysphoria and successful treatment. Those of you that think this is a mental illness or somehow akin to cutting off a "healthy and functional" limb simply have no clue how vitally crucial to ones sense of self and core identity this is. This is not a lifestyle choice. Sexual reassignment surgery is not mutilation or loss, it is corrective.

Now the OP thinks trans people are okay as long as they keep it in the closet and stay quiet about it and I've done basically that for 41 of my 60 years but am speaking out now as others have to maybe bring some enlightenment and understanding to those that are interested in opening their minds and possibly learning something. I feel it is a lost cause though as others that have bravely come forward with history and testimony, such as JadeStar has done, have been belittled, derided, disrespected and dehumanized. I'm not sure why I would want to subject myself to the same level of intolerance and hate since it seems like a pointless exercise but yet here I am and not to proselytize for the politically correct agenda but rather for dignity, respect and humanity.

Of course everyone is different and things aren't always black and white - shades of grey do exist but for the strongly driven or classic gender dysphoric, the imperative to bring congruity between the mind and body is paramount. It becomes fundamental to existence and not something undertaken lightly or for fame and fortune as some have suggested. Get real. Except for publicized instances of regret, which are usually a case of misdiagnosis, the person that has undergone the sexual reassignment process no longer suffers from gender dysphoria. Granted, there may still be issues of societal or familial pressures affecting ones psychological health. Killing the person you were to become the person you are does sometimes come with consequences as you can imagine and situational anxiety can be a real b!tch dealing with it all and threads like this one lacking in compassion and understanding do nothing to help those that may be on this path.

Without providing a detailed narrative, suffice it to say I transitioned full time in 1974 from an androgynous boy of 19 with SRS following several years later. I have lived and worked my entire adult life and have been married, loved and accepted as the woman I am today. I am not mentally ill and do not have psychological problems nor am I delusional, a criminal, a victim of my environment or upbringing or any of the crazy negative things I have read on this board.

I'll close by saying some of you are trying to discuss things you obviously have very little true knowledge of and your preconceived notions, bias and vitriol disgust me. Have a nice day anyway!

a reply to: EKron

I appreciate your post; it makes so much sense. Unfortunately it will fall past the comprehension of those who most need to hear it. But you know what? What does it matter in the long run? There are still people who believe the Earth is flat. There are changes being made socially, and most people are receptive to it. There's going to be a few scragglies in every age, every arena, that holds on to their closed and antiquated mindset.

I guess we just kinda have to shrug our shoulders and move on. One thing I've learned from this thread is that it's tiresome and probably a waste of time to try to get some people to accept change. Perhaps they are not worth the trouble. That's a mean thing to say, and this may be the first time I've ever felt that way about anything, but it's honestly how I feel. Let them stew in their own brilliant stupidity.

a reply to: EKron

Yaaas! Come Through!!

i don't understand why people demand it be labeled as a Mental Illness.. i guess so they can use it as a way to say we don't deserve equal rights because we just have a "Mental disorder"

again, i'm not Transgender, but i am Gay and Genderfuid..so i have a Double Illness

a reply to: EKron

Thank you for your insightful post. I realize that testimonials from brave people like yourself won't change minds intent on being closed, but there are other souls out there who may be going through what you went through, who feel lost, alone, and wondering if they are crazy because ignorant people tell them they are. Those souls may be lurking here, reading your post. The more people who speak out about their experiences and how they came out the other side better, stronger, and mentally healthier, the more hope it will give to anyone just starting to go down this road.

More and more, science is beginning to understand transgender, and the connections between the brain and the body. We can now see physical differences in the brain between males and females, and we see some of those physical differences getting crossed in people who feel so strongly that they were born in the wrong body. There is much more to learn about transgender - the science is not done yet, and anyone who says it is, is either disingenuous or just plain ignorant.

Thank you for that insightful post EKron. So I gently revealed my true nature to my 11 year old cousin and her friend today. I didn't get into all the terminology or specifics. I took them shopping at the mall today and they were surprised and giggled when I bought a nice sunhat. At first I told them that the hat was a gift for someone else but then the astute little buggers noticed me window shopping more appropriate garments per my taste. I just casually dismissed it and we continued on.

Well later into our excursion I showed them my current favorite photo and asked if they thought she was pretty, much to my delight they said yes. I made some insinuating comments here and there before I just told them that the girl in the photo was indeed me. They didn't believe me at first but upon examining the photo more closely they did in fact concur that it was I they were looking at. Now I could tell there was a little bit of confusion there but they did not make a fuss of it, I kind of compared to my cousin being a tomboy which seemed to connect. I asked them if they thought I was a pretty girl they hesitated a bit then I said be honest and they said no, I laughed and said they were mean. Shortly after that they dozed off for the rest of the ride home bless their little hearts.

I'm actually very proud of and surprised by their response as they are from the deep south. I'm hoping this may make our shopping excursions more fun in the future.

originally posted by: grandmakdw

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: grandmakdw

Does it hurt you or anyone else for Bruce Jenner to now be Caitlynn Jenner and have woman parts? Seriously, why do you care? You claim to know Jenner's chromosome make up, how do you know this?

Uh, he was born male.

Females have XX chromosomes
All males have XY chromosomes

What about females who are born XXY?

Non-Klinefelter XXY


Oops... see when you argue that one thing is a sure-fire, slam dunk sex and therefore gender determiner (so wrong since sex and gender while similar are TWO different things), then you are left without an argument when mother nature decides that such strict definitions are fairly silly and she'll have no part in upholding them....



By now you know my story but you don't know me.

However, I can tell you that if you talked with my parents, my childhood friends and anyone who knows me today they would never say I was "biologically male" lol and they'd probably laugh if you thought of me that way.

I've always been a girl (a rather girly girl one at that) and known that I was a girl. Just as you did. It just took a little extra help to deal from my parents and health care providers ensure that I'd continue to develop as one through adulthood because i was born differently.

Which brings to mind Sunday.

On father's day I had a lovely conversation with my dad who, even before my mom accepted me as I am rather than as what the rather ignorant hard-line view about what determines gender which you promoted in this and other thread would have dictated.

At age 7 he finally gave up trying to put a round peg in a square hole by making me do boy stuff and stopped calling me his son and I became another one of his daughters. It wasn't always easy and for him he admitted it was initially hard to let go of the hopes and dreams he had for me when I was born (there's only one boy in my family, my older brother) but he saw I was clearly happier as a girl and more to the point that this was *natural* for me and comfortable for me.

Best dad ever!!!!!

And as such from age 7 until present I have been seen as a girl and as female. I don't expect you to understand that. I didn't chose to become transsexual, it chose me.

All choices by myself and my family after that were so that I could live a healthy, productive life and grow into the young woman I am today.

It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from either. I've hear your view before from other people for whom this is outside of their knowledge level.

In some of these cases where I thought it helpful, I have outed myself on several different occasions to people who had no idea I was born differently. And if they were older usually this was sometimes a bit of a shock but mostly they would ask me questions and discuss things to satisfy their curiosity. I chose to do that so as to help educate them so that the next girl or guy born this way perhaps has it a little easier.

In the real world, I've been probably 95% successful in changing their heart or mind on this issue as they knew me, were relatives of friends or were coworkers at a job.

Lately, with the likes of Janet Mock and Laverne Cox making it safe for Caitlyn and others to live as their true selves I've found myself having this conversation with a lot more people than I ever thought I would be comfortable discussing what I feel is a deeply personal issue and as I said I've been pretty successful in fostering some understanding.

So I get it.

You don't understand intersexed people. You don't understand transsexual people. You don't understand transgender people.

But could you perhaps try a little? I'm here to help. Just don't call me a dude lol!

It's far harder on ATS to discuss this issue with some people who hold your view and I do believe the biggest barrier in that regard is the fact that we are at best an avatar with words on a screen, but without any of the things involved in face to face interaction which for older people often makes a big difference.

So, may I also ask how old you are out of curiosity?

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: EKron

Yaaas! Come Through!!

i don't understand why people demand it be labeled as a Mental Illness.. i guess so they can use it as a way to say we don't deserve equal rights because we just have a "Mental disorder"

again, i'm not Transgender, but i am Gay and Genderfuid..so i have a Double Illness

They want it to be labelled a mental illness (as it once was like 60 years ago) because they don't understand us and sometimes fear us.

I guess what you don't know, you are suspicious of or fear. It's an evolutionary response to our common human history but it's like 2015. Time to advance a little maybe?

I often wonder what will these people do when TransHUMANS become more visible in the next 20 years or so?

originally posted by: EKron
So much stupid here, it hurts my head.

I have no idea where to begin or why I should even bother to help people deny ignorance. Closed minds aren't going to change with anything I could say but I won't resort to picking and choosing junk statistics or studies that go against the prevailing medical view nor will I discount the narratives of those that know what they're talking about. I've listened to both sides of this argument, the ignorance and rhetoric is baffling. I would have called it a discussion but clearly it is not. Grandmakdw says "I call it religion because all science and research facts are ignored". How ironic it is to ascribe this attribute to the LBGQ TG and particularly TS community when just the opposite is clearly true.

Exactly. The irony is that these people often have no idea that among science circles being trans* is not that big a deal mostly because these people are educated.

The more educated the populace, generally the better they are at understanding these issues and the science behind them.

To the contrary I've found that those who often have a highly religious viewpoint of a perfect God which makes perfect people always perfect in "HIS" image are some of the hardest people to reason with from a stand point of facts, figures and science. From their point of view God didn't make a mistake. I and my parents did. :/

With them I often just try to find common ground and help them get to understand that until I told them (or someone else told them) I was no different in their eyes than any other young woman so why should that change now?