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Caitlyn is a woman; Rachel is black; what do you want to be?

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posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 06:13 PM

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
You know I have pretty thick skin and a robust sense of humor but this thread has spiraled into what amounts to pure mockery of people who suffer from identity issues. It's like watching a bunch of middle schoolers taunt the "different" kid.

You and I know this all too well. Brilliant observation. Star for you princess

posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 06:17 PM

originally posted by: khnum
a reply to: Darth_Prime

O for heavens sake what I am saying is you can get boobs,get your adams apple chopped out,grow your hair long,get your bits docked,shave off all your body hair,put polish on your nails,do whatever you want I wont call you female because you never had nor never will have the capacity and equipment to have a baby.

Never is a long time. Don't underestimate science.

You know, I can't help but think the world would be a much better place if like in that movie Surrogates we could all experience life from the point of view of people often very different from us.

If you haven't seen Surrogates, it's a pretty cool sci-fi movie but it could have been much better.

posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 07:10 PM
a reply to: JadeStar

Same here,

how long can people use the "Fear what you don't know" when they refuse to actually learn anything about it and remain ignorant?

posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 08:26 PM

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: Cloudbuster
a reply to: khnum

Some people are born with both baby making parts uterus and testie pens and vaginal. And one woman in the news recently had two vaginas and two uterus. Not sure what the chromosomes were of the people with both parts..... but It can happen.

AGREE they are BORN that way ... makes it unusual, but

'normal' as sometimes happens in nature....

Not *manually* altered and made to fit.

It's a spectrum or a matter of degrees and there's some evidence that the two conditions (hermaphroditism and transexualism) seem to have a commonalities and perhaps a source.

One is expressed through actual physical sexual development (which you seem ok with) and the other is expressed through a difference in the brain (which you don't seem ok with).

If man had not become so proficient at surgery, what would be the answer to these *modern* problems?

In many of those societies (and even some to this day) such a person often would live as the gender they felt they were.

Sometimes this began with a short period of seclusion or certain rites, before returning to be accepted within their society as their true gender or true spirt. Some were even accepted back as both genders or two spirts.

This has been documented through out the Asia, Africa and indigenous people of North America (where it was not uncommon pre-Columbus).

It's part of our common history but due to various sociological reasons, its been a suppressed history.

There's a book called "Transgender Warriors" which details much of it.

Here's a thought, what will happen when science discovers how to alter

skin colour
Michael Jackson ?

Look up the compound known as Hydroquinone.

BTW: Skin bleaching or skin "whitening" is also a common practice throughout many non-western countries. People unaware of this are often shocked to see products openly advertised in the beauty section of drug stores as "Whitening Formula"
edit on 23-6-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 23 2015 @ 09:19 PM

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: grandmakdw

Science tells me I'm a brunette, yet I've been a blonde my whole life. I identify as a blonde.

Science tells me I have hairy legs, yet they are smooth as I keep them that way from preference to be in line with "gender" identities created by society.

Science tells me my underarms should be hairy, but my preference is to not be identified as a woman with hairy underarms, again, to be in line with "gender" identities created by society.

Science tells me I should have fallen pregnant every time I had sexual intercourse during ovulation but I chose to "manipulate" my hormones to avoid pregnancy.

Science tells me my breasts should be larger, but I had them reduced.

Science told a young male relative he should have a left breast (Gynecomastia) but he had it removed as his preference was to not have breasts.

Our identity is none of your business.

Your claims of trans people wagging their junk in peoples faces is ludicrous, offensive and false.

If you value your own identity, please afford others the same courtesy.

Thank you Zazz! If history tells us anything it is that we have found clever ways around nature that we feel are beneficial in domr esy

I guess because being trans* is kinda rare (like 1-in-4000) that the things we need to do to be comfortable and be happy are thought of differently because everyone knows someone who shaves their legs, but not everyone knows someone who changes gender or has sexual reassignment surgery so up until recently we could be talked about however anyone wanted and made out to be dishonest or a joke and we had to just accept it because "we made a choice to be that way".

I remember in the other thread which got heated, the one about trans kids and their families being told that I couldn't possibly have felt how I felt and that my parents were bad people who should have gone to jail for raising me as a girl once they were resigned to the fact that no matter what they did I wouldn't change.

To grandma to try to keep in mind what ATS is supposed to be about: FREEDOM and Denying Ignorance

Our bodies. are sovereign and we should be allowed to do whatever we want with them as long as it is not hurting anyone or ourselves (that last part is another debate entirely.)

Our IDENTITY is not something up for debate by anyone any more than I can tell you how you should live. The right to self determination of one's identity including gender identity is a fundamental human right.

Anything less than the above is limiting freedom and the rights of people like me, or TrappedPrincess or Elkron or other transsexual or transgender people to live happy productive lives.

And as much as you talk about science, it seems you have not kept pace with where the research into gender identity stands TODAY, not where it stood in 1985 or whatever.

If you and I and my parents were in the same room I'd really think that as you heard our story you'd perhaps reconsider your views. I was always the girl you see to the left its just that from years 1-7 people kept trying to tell me I was a boy and to lie and pretend that I was and to enjoy it.

Is that what you would have us do? Live a lie because we didn't pass your oh so vaunted (but not air tight) chromosome test?

Can you honestly say I'd be better off if I had grown more and more depressed before probably killing myself before my 20th birthday because I was condemned to a life I did not want simply because you thought my chromosomes were XY and therefore my gender should be masculine?

I never felt like a boy.
I always felt like a girl.
I never talked or socialized, talked or acted like a boy.
I always had more in common with my sisters than my brother.
My brother knew this, my sisters knew this and eventually my parents knew it too.
I never made a choice to become trans, I was born this way.

Grandma, please understand that we don't want any "special attention" or "special rights", most of us just want to live our lives. To people who don't know I'm trans I don't bring it up -unless- I feel very strongly that it be helpful in a discussion about issues of difference and discrimination, particularly around LGBT issues.

Other than that I'm more than happy to get on with what I hope will be a very long and happy, productive life. My boyfriend once joked that he forgets that I was born differently unless the subject comes up. And to be honest I do not think about it either unless the subject comes up.

My point is, transsexual and transgender people are PEOPLE with families, loved ones and lives like everybody else and most of us just want to live our lives without would-be gate keepers checking our papers or chromosomes.

What do you want? Us all to just live out lives completely at odds with who we are inside?

If so then that sounds positively totalitarian.

I outed myself on ATS because I felt that TrappedPrincess and the few other trans* people on ATS need some support and I felt that stories like mine, which are less common than stories of people who like Caitlyn Jenner, transitioned later in life, could help.

As I said then, I'm open to anyone who has any questions about trans* stuff or my personal experience. If you don't feel comfortable discussing the thread you can send me U2U and we can chat privately.

I may be idealistic but I feel that if I change just one mind about this stuff then it makes it easier for the next person who might be reading this thread and feeling uncomfortable by the way the subject, at least early in the thread was discussed.

edit on 23-6-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

posted on Jun, 24 2015 @ 12:37 AM

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Dfairlite

I'm not talking about having surgery at age 4. I'm talking about letting your son wear dresses and grow his hair long and calling him a female name, if he expresses the need or desire to do that. I'm talking about a PERSISTENT desire or need. If your child is PERSISTENT about being the opposite gender, you send them to therapy so professionals can evaluate this persistence. If the professionals agree that your child is probably transgender, you can opt to give them puberty blockers to hold off puberty until a more final decision can be made regarding hormone treatment. After all of that (and several years later), if the child still wants surgery, it can be done and the full transition will be much more successful.

Yes. This is soooooooooooooooooooo very true and on point.

I mentioned in the other thread another girl like me from my town whose is about the same age but unlike me, her parents did not accept her (her father and mother were mentally abusive) even though she like me also knew she was a girl at an early age.

I hope its ok to re-tell here because I am not sure Granny saw it before and I feel that it may illustrate how different upbringings can have vastly different outcomes.

My friend grew up across town and I did not know her (though we both wished we had lived in the same neighborhood because at least we'd have a friend going through the same thing.)

That's not all, there were many other parallels with our parents, when it no longer was seen as a cute phase, they first tried to convince us we were mistaken and all that boy stuff was really cool, fun, etc.

Then when that didn't work they began shame campaigns which for her reached epic proportions.

AND THIS is where the depression started. My mom remembers me around that time (6) angrily telling her that if I was a boy then I wished I had never been born.

Both the girl across town and I always sat down to pee, both of our dads tried to get us to stand and stuff but my dad finally realized that it was wasted effort, i'd sit down again when he wasn't around.

Both of us got teased in kindergarten for playing house and wanting to always be the mom, etc.

Then there was the whole secret toy trading thing. (I traded my xmas cars and trucks for dolls and stuff with a neighborhood girl from my school who loved playing with them and doing all sorts of other kinda rough play with boys our age.

And across town, the girl I mentioned had a sister a year younger who she "shared" (but in reality traded) her boy toys with.

I had an older sister but she was even more helpful. She secretly would hide my dolls and girl clothes (hand-me-downs from stuff which was packed up for Goodwill when she was my age) so my mother didn't throw them out.

In my friends case her dad not only threw them out but he caught her dressed in girl clothes he took out a belt. if he was in a really bad mode he'd use the buckle.He also verbally abused her calling her all the names you can imagine.

AT 7! All we wanted was to be kids and be left alone.

Meanwhile in my house it couldn't be more stark of a contrast.

Age 7 was when my parents began letting me be myself at home and I no longer had to hide my toys, where boy clothes and get my hair cut. My mom was not thrilled but after having taken me to two therapists for evaluation their recommendation was to just let me be comfortable and feel loved and accepted at home.

So my dad began calling me by my female name (which I chose from several my mom had considered naming me) but it took my mom until I was 12 to start doing that!

Still that was a world of difference. Acceptance was still a process but it came at a crucial time in my life.

And the rest is history. The "dual life" many trans people have to live ended for me at 11-12 when by now I was being correctly gendered as a girl even though I was wearing boy clothes when out with my parents or older siblings.

So after another consultation with the school and two more shrinks (one from the school and one from private practice) my parents were finally reassured that their suspicion that this was not just some phase was confirmed andI was allowed to begin living fully as me at 12!

An then not long after that when I was 13 I was put on hormone blockers which by the way, were expensive and which our insurance would not cover. So my parents, because they loved me went out of their way and out of their pocket to see that I could be healthy and not go through something (male puberty) which would have irreversibly have begun to change my body and would probably sent me over the suicidal edge.

The blockers were a godsend and gave me some extra time and given a chance to think about whether to stop them and go through male puberty or keep taking them and start estrogen treatments. I knew at 13 what I wanted but as directed I thought it over and frequently discussed my feelings with my parens and family.

Then at 15 began hormones and another 2 years later at 17 I completed my reassignment surgery.

I graduated high school and entered college and while in high school everybody seemingly knew my story and I had a very limited circle of cool friends, outside of high school, to the rest of society I was no different than any other girl my age. My avatar was taken back then.

So it would continue into college.

I could finally focus completely on my studies without the teasing and stuff.

Unlike me my future friend was forced to dress as a girl in secret an dropped out of high school, left home early so that she could START her transition at 17, now with a beard, mustache, a guys voice and male facial and body hair.

She finally did complete her transition and today is very pretty but inside she will be the first to tell you she's a complete mess at times. The abuse from her father in particular left emotional scars. She got in the sex trade as a result of an attraction to BDSM stuff and makes decent money doing webcam work.

Meanwhile I am studying to become a professional astronomer.

People oogle her on "tranny porn" sites during some of the same hours I'm out oogling stars, galaxies and nebulae.

We actually joked about that once. We laughed for awhile, then she started crying. She also got really sad once when she I took her to one of my favorite place where I sometimes would sing karaoke for fun and stuff. When I was done I was like "wow, I was that bad? lol" and she explained she was crying because at that point it really hit home that all though we had similar beginnings, as a result of male puberty and testosterone's effects, that she would never have a lovely female voice.

I gave her the biggest hug and told her it was ok, she was still my friend and while we can't change where we come from, as long as we are alive and capable we can change where we are headed.

Those who fully transition before puberty makes permanent changes have the best psycho- social adjustment. A member of ATS, Jadestar, has posted on a few of these threads with her positive experience transitioning early. She appears to be a very happy, well-adjusted young lady. The key is good therapy, supportive family, and a few years of reflection to make this very important decision.

^ x 100 Thanks!

posted on Jun, 25 2015 @ 11:19 PM
Is this thread still going?

Look, when that Rachel chick says she's black, is she referring to her skin tone or is it some stereotype she identifies with?

posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 06:50 AM
You know it was said of Julius Caesar that " He was a husband to every woman of Rome and a wife to every man of Rome.
From what I understand he was also a man for the people which the greedy nobility of the time did not like so they stabbed him in the back repeatedly including his son like figure Brutus to protect their own pockets.

I guess he was mentally disabled though so he deserved it I guess *end sarcasm*

posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 02:49 PM
It sure would have been nice if the person who posted a new thread on the same topic had just read and posted in this.

posted on Jul, 3 2015 @ 12:26 PM
a reply to: grandmakdw

I think I have decided I am 16, I really feel 16

Well, from what I've seen of you on ATS, you are doing a great job of acting 16, too!

posted on Jul, 3 2015 @ 12:31 PM

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: grandmakdw

I think I have decided I am 16, I really feel 16

Well, from what I've seen of you on ATS, you are doing a great job of acting 16, too!

All you can do is pull insults because you disagree with me most of the time.
Juvenile, and on such an old thread,
you must have worked hard and put a great deal of effort
into trying to find something to insult me on.
How funny!

Your post has zero to do with the OP, and your post and this response by all rights
should be deleted and censured by Mods.

posted on Jul, 3 2015 @ 12:42 PM
a reply to: grandmakdw

All you can do is pull insults because you disagree with me most of the time.

So sorry! And so glad it made you laugh! Because that was the point.
I thought it was a compliment. I at least thought you might get a kick out of it.

Never mind, then. And no, it didn't take much just popped out of my fingertips when I read your 'wish'.

Though why on earth you would 'want' to go back to high school is beyond me. I STILL have nightmares about high school. Being 16 is misery at its height for many, many people.

Carry on with your rant.

I "want" to be myself.
edit on 7/3/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 3 2015 @ 01:57 PM
a reply to: grandmakdw

Your post has zero to do with the OP, and your post and this response by all rights
should be deleted and censured by Mods.

Why? I responded directly to your OP; you said you want to be 16, and feel 16.
I congratulated you on successfully living out that 'want' of yours.

Caitlyn Jenner 'feels' like a woman. She 'acts' like a woman. So - good for her! The post is totally to do with your OP!

Oh well - have a great holiday, grams. INDEPENDENCE day!!!

edit on 7/3/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:54 AM
a reply to: grandmakdw

Im a trans-necrophiliac. I choose only to have sex with people that are alive!
Also im a trans-pedist, i walk backwards from now on!

Didn't see the
sign there!

edit on 7/4/2015 by Tundra because: Oops, did that offend you? Hahaha!!!!

posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:40 AM
a reply to: grandmakdw

I'd like to transition from lower tier sub-poverty to being discreetly wealthy.

edit on 7/4/15 by GENERAL EYES because: clarity

posted on Jul, 8 2015 @ 10:05 AM

What about you? What have you decided to be regardless of your genetics or birth certificate, telomeres, or DNA?

I'm Batman....yeah, that sounds fun...Batman...nah nah nah nah nah.......

posted on Jul, 8 2015 @ 12:11 PM
I am now a Zebra. Society must accept!
edit on 8-7-2015 by ItsJoey because: (no reason given)

posted on Jul, 8 2015 @ 03:33 PM
Seriously though, I get the whole gender identity issue...or at least I think I do.

It actually fits into my theory. (not an original idea probably, as I'm sure others have considered the same).

I believe in reincarnation. In that, I also believe that over time, a soul may develop a gender identity (regardless of which gender it is in a given incarnation).

So, if a male soul is incarnated as a female...maybe this is where you get a lesbian? (especially one who acts and dresses more like a man).

Now, doesn't mean a soul HAS to pick one, maybe some like bouncing around...but it certainly would explain it.

And with all that still doesn't make it normal. Should we accept the new identity? Well, I think that's up to an individual...but hey, I'm happy to go along with what you want to be. (want isn't the right word). But, you can't expect not to have a weird factor here. Just as I have to accept that a grown man dressing up like a Hogwarts student when going to Universal Studios is going to be seen as weird by others in society.

posted on Jul, 8 2015 @ 03:47 PM
a reply to: Gazrok

Gender and Sexuality are different. and as far as your theory Goes a Female with a more Male soul wouldn't necessarily be a Lesbian.

As far as normal, everything is Normal, and Nothing Is Normal.. first you would have to define the true "Normal" and base everything off of that, just because it's not normal to you doesn't mean it's not normal to me or anyone else

posted on Jul, 9 2015 @ 02:56 PM
Like it or not....society as a whole, at any given point in time is perfectly capable of determining what it deems as "normal". Whether we agree or disagree, there are certain social norms.

That said, I'm a pretty normal guy in many ways, but that doesn't change the fact that many of my interests are not considered "normal" behavior. I can accept that. And that's fine. I just don't get this overwhelming urge to try and change what is considered "normal". Fine, I'm happy Bruce is happy as a chick, good for "her"?. But you're going to fail on the point of trying to convince us this should be something that is celebrated or even given much attention, or that should be considered "normal". Glad he's happy, but no need to ram it down society's collective throat. Totally cool with accepting it, but not cool with celebrating it or making him/her into some kind of martyr or inspiration.

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