Enacting a basic income for all Americans

originally posted by: EternalSolace
a reply to: ketsuko

Replace those people with automation. It goes from needing 50 people to a machine and one person to maintain it.

There will always be that one person who has an interest and love on working and maintaining machines. That will make it a hobby and not a job.

You are assuming we can automate everything. Can you automate repairs too? At some point you need a person who can take charge. Someone will have to work.

But I was replying to a poster who admits that some people will have to work in order to make this all work out.

a reply to: EternalSolace

It's already happening.

Social security, eunemployeement, food stamps, welfare, section 8, and so on.

Look at the sheer numbers of people involved in those programs and the actual labor force that sustains the amount of people in the country already.

It's a thing of the past were just slow to adapt.

It bears repeating:

We have the technology and scientific know-how to produce a paradise on Earth. But, we are motivated by greed and accumulation of surplus. These very real human instincts are evolutionary hold-overs that have long since served their purposes.

These same instincts are reinforced, perpetuated and indoctrinated into the masses by the wealthiest 1% of the world's population. If you can keep the people fighting over a loaf of bread, they won't have time to rest their gaze upon those with the warehouse of bread.

a reply to: ketsuko

No, everything cannot be automated. However, that isn't a crux.

There will always be an individual that any given "job" is a passion or hobby.

I have a friend who just sits in his garage, in his own time, and fixes lawnmowers and other random stuff. I've asked him several times if he doesn't have anything else to do because to me it seems like a chore. His reply, "It's calming and I enjoy doing it."

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: ketsuko

A society ruled by Greed, this is certainly true. And this is what we are, right now.

You're absolutely correct. Unless we move beyond greed, that is our future.

*sigh*

Look, you admit yourself that people will have to work in order to make society work. Those people are working to make it all work for everyone. If you do not have enough people who choose to work to make it work for everyone, then society does not work. It all falls down.

It doesn't matter if greed is involved or not.

If you need 500 tomatoes to keep society going, and you need to 50 people to grow those tomatoes, and only 40 people choose to work. You are SOL, no matter what the reason is for you only having 40 people out of 1,000 people in society working.

At that point, you are talking about hard math, and math doesn't care if you accuse of it greed. It is what it is.

I get what your saying, and you are absolutely right. If this happened over night. But it will not happen over night. The way people are now. Might not be the way people are fifty to a hundred years from now.

If you look at all the things the billionaires are working towards. It seems like they are grooming us for a time when most of us will not be needed for society to function. And in all honesty. Most of us will have to die. Or the birth rates will have to drop massively, which if you look, they are starting to. For this type of scenario to be feasible. Because the population would have to be a lot less than it is now, and procreation will have to become a privilege and not a right. For it to work.

Is that good? I don't know. For most people probably not. Is that what is happening? Maybe. A time of masters and serfs. Where the masters do unimaginable things and live like gods and the serfs live like the masters do now. Its a very possible future scenario.

It's funny the ones who seem to oppose this idea, seem to be obsessed about what it might take from them. They don't understand it would take nothing from them. They just don't like the idea of humans not working for a living. Even if the work is still being done. Which is a cultural mindset rather than any logical one

a reply to: EternalSolace

Grabbing at straws says everyone will just sit in the house getting fat.

If they go to an affluent community they will see people who are artistic and spiritual focusing their lives on more creative practices and hobbies, like computer programming, astronomy, psychics, religion, yoga, educating themselves endlessly, gardening and the list goes... More grasping at straws and holding onto the old paradigm

a reply to: onequestion

And the thing is, these "couch potatoes" that currently exist on the welfare system others point to as examples...

There isn't anything else they CAN do. It's not like the social programs provide so much in the way of money, food and shelter that these people can go buy a $1,800 telescope to begin a hobby of astrophotography.

For those people it's either work, or be a prisoner of their own home and television. These are human beings too with dreams, hopes, and wishes. I'm sure some of them wanted to be hair stylists, painters, martial arts experts -- but the money they get is just enough to do what? Sit on their couch and watch the world go by.

So while we deride these people for being lazy, we're not really doing anything to enable them either. So we are really creating the demon we want to be able to point a finger at.

Those who produce the things you need for life - food, clothing, shelter, etc. - are the ones who control you. If you become entirely dependent on robots to produce those things, then whoever or whatever controls them likewise controls you.

Remember, a system big enough to provide everything you need can also take it all away. And through that you are controlled.

This is what is meant about the gilded cage. All of you who think this is paradise see only the good things you can have, and in that you are every bit as greedy as any of us who would rather work for ourselves. You want what you want. And you would happily lock yourselves in that cage to have it because you think it will all be handed to you on platter at no cost or effort on your part. But that's why the cage is gilded. It looks pretty until you see the true cost to you once the door is shut and locked behind.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Those who produce the things you need for life - food, clothing, shelter, etc. - are the ones who control you. If you become entirely dependent on robots to produce those things, then whoever or whatever controls them likewise controls you.

Remember, a system big enough to provide everything you need can also take it all away. And through that you are controlled.

This is what is meant about the gilded cage. All of you who think this is paradise see only the good things you can have, and in that you are every bit as greedy as any of us who would rather work for ourselves. You want what you want. And you would happily lock yourselves in that cage to have it because you think it will all be handed to you on platter at no cost or effort on your part. But that's why the cage is gilded. It looks pretty until you see the true cost to you once the door is shut and locked behind.

You are absolutely right, again. But the question is. How many people would rather be in a gilded cage, instead of a rusty barbed wire one? As long as we are stuck to one planet. We will always be in some kind of cage. Freedom will always be an illusion.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

You don't really believe all of that do you?

I've seen some of the programs on offer to some of the section 8 complexes. They are offered all kinds of job programs, including training and education and resume and interview help. If some of them in those places are sitting at home, it's not because they don't have access to programs to help them get out.

originally posted by: ketsuko
Those who produce the things you need for life - food, clothing, shelter, etc. - are the ones who control you. If you become entirely dependent on robots to produce those things, then whoever or whatever controls them likewise controls you.

That's why none of this is even remotely possible unless humanity, as a whole, moves away from the concept of "me".

There's no other reason that someone would take those things away from society.

My opinion is it all boils down to people want, nay NEED to feel superior to others in some way.

They need that 'pariah' to call lazy, and unmotivated, and 'look at that guy he has all these opportunities to be more like me and he squandered it."

They need that person they can think about at night and thank god they don't have their life.

It's comforting for many to believe there are those out there who are suffering while they are doing okay.

Greed and Pride are at the root of these feelings.

originally posted by: onequestion
Now let me preface this post by saying I'm not trying to get support for this here. I'm using this article to Segway the conversation so mods please let me know what you think.

The truth is the rest of the world is catching up to and surpassing the west educationally creating a larger worker force. Add to the problem automation and we have a situation were it takes fewer and fewer people to care for more and more people.

So now what is the majority of the population suppose to do when it only takes a small minority of the population to take care of the needs of the majority.

As many of you are well aware it's harder and harder to run a small business in this country everyday due to inflation and purchasing power of the dollar. It's also harder and harder to do because there is less and less money circulating around our local economies available for our goods and services.

Income inequality in the United States has risen sharply in recent years and continues to get worse. Widespread unemployment is becoming imminent, as more and more traditional jobs are replaced by technology and automation. Without serious intervention, we could face massive increases in poverty and civil unrest in the years ahead.

source

It's an inevitable reality we'll have to face someday. I mean, it should actually be a goal and not viewed as a "problem" to be dealt with.

No matter what, we will reach a state (within a decade or two, I'd say) where unemployment isn't high because the economy sucks but because the workforce demand just won't be there. Farther down that road, the idea of a job will be obsolete. When that happens, we will need to address social economics in a way we've never had the opportunity to do. People will simply need to live and thrive without having to work for it. The only problem with that is the ingrained illusion of a required work ethic that most people can't let go of... of some sort of meritocracy where respect and dignity must be earned for some arbitrary reason instead of just being a given.

Do these people think that, in a struggle-free society, that people should just live in poverty because there's no work? That's ridiculous. We'll have to create an entirely new way of handling our resources that ensures every person the basic needs and wants. It's not like we couldn't afford it by that point.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: ketsuko
Those who produce the things you need for life - food, clothing, shelter, etc. - are the ones who control you. If you become entirely dependent on robots to produce those things, then whoever or whatever controls them likewise controls you.

That's why none of this is even remotely possible unless humanity, as a whole, moves away from the concept of "me".

There's no other reason that someone would take those things away from society.

And that right there is the problem I have with this.

I am me. I am an individual. You are asking humanity to subsume individuality to the Greater Good.

You all talk a great game about how wonderful it will be to pursue individual pursuits, but you can't have it two ways. Either we are a collective now, or we are individuals.

It seems that when you get to do all the wonderful individual fun things you like, you are most definitely "me," but as soon as I don't want to get dragged into your glorious collective, I am wrong for wanting to be "me."

originally posted by: Cuervo

We'll have to create an entirely new way of handling our resources that ensures every person the basic needs and wants. It's not like we couldn't afford it by that point.

There is enough money in the world to end poverty and homelessness and hunger 10x or more over.

It all comes down to greed as being the reason it won't happen.

a reply to: ketsuko

Sure, and the problem isn't that those don't exist -- its that the folks living in those areas don't value those things.

People that live in abject poverty value that which is immediate. A plate of food, a new pair of shoes. These people aren't like those that have the luxury of being able to plan long term while living securely.

It's not that these people won't become productive, or don't want to become productive -- but they've been saddled with a socioeconomic situation that isn't conducive to valuing anything more than immediate satisfaction of basic needs.

"Look, you can take these classes for several years and learn to program computers! Then after a few more years working with computers you can buy a big house!"

This is an alien and foreign concept to people living at the bottom of society.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm trying to understand your point. I really am.

However, I don't see how any of this would be a detriment to individuality.

In a world where all menial labor is automated and remaining tasks are completed by those whom want to complete those tasks because it is a hobby and/or passion; How does that take away from any individuality?

Would you still not have the ability to feed yourself, clothe yourself, and be self sustaining apart from society?

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: Cuervo

We'll have to create an entirely new way of handling our resources that ensures every person the basic needs and wants. It's not like we couldn't afford it by that point.

There is enough money in the world to end poverty and homelessness and hunger 10x or more over.

It all comes down to greed as being the reason it won't happen.

That's true but it won't be addressed until we're forced to address it. Soon, we'll have to because there just won't be enough useful things for people to do yet everybody still deserves to exist with dignity, right?

I'm picturing a world with maybe 5% employment rate (enough to keep the machine running) and maybe have everybody work a mandatory five years (like compulsory military service in some nations) or even a lottery. There will be zero reason for everybody to work 40 hours a week to keep a high-tech society functioning and thriving. That will be the time when the oligarchy and ultra-powerful in the world won't be able to run away from the disparity issues anymore and have to face the simple truth: there's enough for everybody on this planet.

a reply to: EternalSolace
My theory is who cares if half the population is lazy what's the difference?