Enacting a basic income for all Americans

a reply to: MystikMushroom

That isn't a problem of access though.

There isn't anything else they CAN do. It's not like the social programs provide so much in the way of money, food and shelter that these people can go buy a $1,800 telescope to begin a hobby of astrophotography.

For those people it's either work, or be a prisoner of their own home and television. These are human beings too with dreams, hopes, and wishes. I'm sure some of them wanted to be hair stylists, painters, martial arts experts -- but the money they get is just enough to do what? Sit on their couch and watch the world go by.

They have access to tools that would let them better themselves which you claimed they did not.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
The more we automate, the smaller our population needs to be. We simply can't have a huge chunk of the population sitting around doing nothing because we've designed robots to do it for us.

I hate to say it ... but people probably need to not have 5 kids and whatnot. We don't live on farms anymore, we don't need to breed in order to have a ready-made workforce.

But for some dropping babies IS their idea of a secure income. So long as the government supports such policies young, poorly-educated girls will continue reproducing the offspring of the multiple baby daddies. Essentially we already have a minimum income at least for low-income women with children at home. Young men on the other hand can either shack up with these young women or are left to fend for themselves.

Not so long ago at least a man could find manual labor to support himself. Between automation and unlimited immigration that is no longer even an option for most. Leaving young men with no way to provide for themselves can only lead to trouble.

a reply to: ketsuko

I suppose an ultimate argument you would make would be along the lines:

"How much does a library card cost?"

I've heard that one before...

Access isn't always universal in poor neighborhoods. Funding for a lot of these programs is always in flux because of ever tightening budgets. I'm sure there have been poor kids helped out, only be dropped from such programs when the funding dries up.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
The more we automate, the smaller our population needs to be. We simply can't have a huge chunk of the population sitting around doing nothing because we've designed robots to do it for us.

I hate to say it ... but people probably need to not have 5 kids and whatnot. We don't live on farms anymore, we don't need to breed in order to have a ready-made workforce.

Not so long ago at least a man could find manual labor to support himself. Between automation and unlimited immigration that is no longer even an option for most. Leaving young men with no way to provide for themselves can only lead to trouble.

I hear you on that point. The number of workers needed for construction has significantly decreased in recent years. Let's also not forget that we simply aren't doing as much infrastructure construction as we were 50-60 years ago.

When you're one of these "baby daddies" you can easily get saddled with child support. This in turn further complicates and restricts the types of jobs these guys take. If you know most of your wage is going to be garnished by the child support office, you're probably going to look for jobs that pay cash under the table.

There aren't a ton of these types of jobs...

What does pay cash under the table that's in every single city? Crime...

So, yep -- having a lot of unemployed males is not a good thing.

a reply to: ketsuko

This is not relevant to the conversation because it doesn't matter if people choose to be productive that's not the point.

originally posted by: Cuervo
picturing a world with maybe 5% employment rate (enough to keep the machine running) and maybe have everybody work a mandatory five years (like compulsory military service in some nations) or even a lottery. There will be zero reason for everybody to work 40 hours a week to keep a high-tech society functioning and thriving.

I don't even believe that any compulsory labor or military service would be needed.

It's like I keep saying. There will always be people willing to perform jobs because they like to do it.

Is it really a job when you're doing something you love?

I'd like to take some time out here if I may...

I wanted to say good job to everyone participating in this ongoing discussion. A lot of times topics like this can devolve, and tempers can flare. I want to congratulate everyone here for doing such a good job at sticking to the topic at hand, and maintaining an awesome level of composure.

This is a prime example of a discussion that may not be totally pleasant, but is going to eventually need to happen. Automation has, and is coming despite what we may or may not want. This is an important issue, and I'm glad to be a part of it.

We have people with so many ideas and varying opinions on ATS, and it's wonderful when we can all share our ideas without getting bogged down in negativity. Sure, I may not agree with you nor you I -- but I see a lot of respect between members in this topic. Kudos to everyone, keep it up -- this is what makes ATS a great place to throw ideas around!

a reply to: EternalSolace

There will still be an economy especially with services and the new things tha emerge from arts. Psychics and philosophy.

I'll continue to box and teach boxing.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: ketsuko

This is not relevant to the conversation because it doesn't matter if people choose to be productive that's not the point.

Ok, then explain how the things people need will get produced if no one chooses to be productive?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: EternalSolace

There will still be an economy especially with services and the new things tha emerge from arts. Psychics and philosophy.

I'll continue to box and teach boxing.

OK, so you teach boxing, and I decide to write and Cuervo decides to provide spiritual services.

None of those things feeds, clothes or provides shelter for any of us. Those things do not ensure that we have electricity, or clean water, or the energy to create any of it ...

a reply to: ketsuko

If everyone decides to just flat out be totally non productive is very very unlikely then the system will collapse and the world will descend into chaos.

How likely is that scenario?

Do you think a lot of people will be I retested in that not happenjng and choose to participate?

a reply to: onequestion

Should the type of society we've been discussing come to fruition, do you see yourself able to teach boxing free from any compensation?

I pose that question to anyone with a skill to teach that they enjoy:

Do any of you believe that should you no longer have to worry about finances, and were secure in your life, feel that you could teach your skill without any compensation?

I believe that would be the perfect way to advance said society.

What I don't want to see happen is like what happened in Issac Asimov's "Foundation" series...

Basically, when the Galactic Empire declined and shiveled into a shell of its former self, no one knew how anything worked anymore. People took for granted that the power stations just "worked" -- but no one could fix them if they broke down.

I wouldn't want to see a society dependent on robots to the point where we didn't know how any of them operated or how they could be fixed. One good natural disaster (asteroid) could send us back to the stone age because we weren't able to repair the robots that allowed us to survive.

a reply to: EternalSolace
Don't know.

I think the idea of economy will still be active but totally different.

The society I'm talking about is already here but we just don't have perspective on it yet.

It's here we live it already.

I have to barter with my clients often. Not a lot of money for what I do so I have to be flexible with certain people and allow them to think of ways to trade with me.

a reply to: ScientificRailgun

Where is the basic guaranteed income going to come from?

The government.

Where does the government get its money?

People.

I'm flabbergasted that that point escapes people. What economic model provides money for everybody out of thin air? More specifically, what economic model has the GOVERNMENT providing money to an entire population out of thin air?

I suppose we could just print money to cover it...?

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: ketsuko

If everyone decides to just flat out be totally non productive is very very unlikely then the system will collapse and the world will descend into chaos.

How likely is that scenario?

Do you think a lot of people will be I retested in that not happenjng and choose to participate?

Well, you talked about people having a passion for things. Do you really think that many people have a passion for keeping the sewer system going or mining coal or any one of the other million and one nasty or otherwise unpleasant jobs that need to be done for the upkeep of society?

Even with robots, humans will have to choose to want to work in those professions to some degree or other.

How likely is that scenario that enough people will have a passion for those jobs?

a reply to: ketsuko

Here's a couple of articles about the advancement of automated construction and engineering:

Robots, drones, and printed buildings: The promise of automated construction

Automation in Construction

The technology to produce infrastructure completely by automation isn't quite there yet. But with a quick glance through those articles, one can see how quickly it's advancing.

Siemens Power Plant Automation (SPPA) Products

There is a small piece on power plant automation. While the facility and infrastructure would still need to be built, these facilities can almost run themselves with very little human input.


While human interaction and maintenance is always necessary, the degree at which that interaction is necessary is decreasing.

a reply to: onequestion

3 pages ago you said you live in an area "of affluence."

Now there's not a lot of money in what you do? Because your clients need to barter?

Which is it?

Or was I correct in MY earlier comment that maybe you're just not that good a businessman?

With more automation, comes less jobs.

On the current economic model, how do people support themselves when more and more jobs are being lost to automation?

Do we stop technological advancement?

Straight up! $250,000. a year for all of us!