Enacting a basic income for all Americans

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: ketsuko

The point is going miles over your head.

and a few others so your not alone.

No, I get it. You want a Utopian economy where people would be provided a basic income if they choose not to work.

And what we are asking is how that will be provided, and we are getting no concrete answers.

Sure you are. I provided them. Taxes. Taxes to provide the handout and taxes ON the handout.

Oh. Wait. You meant from the OP.

My bad

This is not about what i want this is already happening and right now your taxes are paying for it.

The economy is drastically changing and isnt going back to the way it was. We cannot avoid the changes.

a reply to: ketsuko

what if it's robots making the blankets by the millions and the people who have no job have no money to pay for the blankets... seems like the company that owns the robots would have two choices then, either stop producing the blankets and be content with the knowledge that the owners will never have to worry about needing a blanket again, or well reduce the blankets to a price that the people can afford- which is nothing since they have no money!

a reply to: onequestion

If that's true then...why is unemployment trending down?

Why is unemployment lower now than the average unemployment rate for the last 70 years?

Why were nearly a quarter million jobs added last quarter?

Actual data and such

a reply to: Shamrock6
what we lost was well paying full time jobs what we are gaining is part time jobs.
and many of the unemployed aren't being counted because quit frankly, they gave up looking.
heck I don't know maybe they are in their basements building their meth labs!

originally posted by: onequestion
This is not about what i want this is already happening and right now your taxes are paying for it.

The economy is drastically changing and isnt going back to the way it was. We cannot avoid the changes.

And if the economy crashes tomorrow, it won't be so inevitable anymore will it?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: ketsuko

what if it's robots making the blankets by the millions and the people who have no job have no money to pay for the blankets... seems like the company that owns the robots would have two choices then, either stop producing the blankets and be content with the knowledge that the owners will never have to worry about needing a blanket again, or well reduce the blankets to a price that the people can afford- which is nothing since they have no money!

Oh, but see, I make my own blankets, and what if my blankets don't look like robot-made ones and someone wants what I have made?

Do they have the right to just take my blanket?

a reply to: ketsuko

What are you even talking about not making sense anymore.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: ketsuko

What are you even talking about not making sense anymore.

In what way? I do make my own blankets, see?



If I continue to make them, can someone who wants one just take it in your new Utopia?

Also, you are now trying to convince us by telling us it's all inevitable, but that presupposes that the government and the current system is inevitable and eternal. I'm reminding you it is not.

a reply to: ketsuko

no but would you mind if they offered to trade some of that great blueberry moonshine that they have stashed away for one???
the thing is though if most of the labor is being done by robots and it causes most of the populaton to sit idle, then it does neither the company that owns the robots that doing the manufacturing nor the people to be producing a million blankets...so well then a choice must be made, does the company turn off most of their robots or find a way to enable the population to have the blankets?

a reply to: dawnstar

Professional and business jobs: 62,000 jobs added in April 2015

Health care: 45,000 jobs added in April 2015

Construction: 45,000 jobs added in April 2015

Biggest job loss sector: mining.

The number of people underemployed and "working part time for financial reasons" are both down from a year ago. Less people are working part time because they need to, while more people are working part time because they want to.

Long term unemployment numbers are largely unchanged.

You were saying?

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: ketsuko

no but would you mind if they offered to trade some of that great blueberry moonshine that they have stashed away for one???
the thing is though if most of the labor is being done by robots and it causes most of the populaton to sit idle, then it does neither the company that owns the robots that doing the manufacturing nor the people to be producing a million blankets...so well then a choice must be made, does the company turn off most of their robots or find a way to enable the population to have the blankets?

But now, people are working again because someone has to cultivate the blueberries and engage in capitalism in order to arrange for that trade ...

I'm not being difficult, I'm just pointing it out. You won't get rid of it. It's as natural for people as breathing.

a reply to: ketsuko
na the moonshiner grows his own blueberries and picks them himself. he just makes enough for himself and his close friends. he just likes your blankets enough to give up one of some of his stash for one.
and well, I'm sorry but you will never be able to compete in the blanket business with the robots pricewise, not to mention that there are too few people around you who could pay the price you wish for one of your blankets.
why do you think that the women turned out into the workforce to begin with. the industrial age enabled the factories to make the candles, weave the clothe, sew the clothing, and all the other things that the women were doing in their homes so much cheaper and faster.

a reply to: ketsuko

Who said there wouldnt still be capitalism

a reply to: dawnstar

we don't shop at Walmart. (wouldn't do any good, there isn't one in our town)

We spend more on hand-made quilts, comforters, art, products made from goats milk, meat and dairy from the farmers themselves. . . . . .

Because we can afford it and the quality is better.

People making handmade things might become passé, but a robot can't replace care, quality, and something made from hand.

Despite everyone's best attempts, capitalism will emerge regardless of the economic or geographical circumstance.

a reply to: beezzer

actually I am kind of betting on things going that way and not the way of robotics replacing humans. I think that the economy is gonna collaspe long before then and well all that cheap crap at wal mart isn't gonna be as cheap anymore because well the dollar will be losing it's position as the reserve currency and the countries where the stuff is produced just aren't gonna be interested in collecting the dollars anymore.
but well the main theme of the op is that the robotics will replace people...

This has been a fascinating thread so far, and I think I see a few things in the naysayers that may be the root of the resistance to the ideas in the first place.

One being a self-defeating, and maybe self-perceived, notion of becoming useless when their jobs are automated (it IS coming, our progression rate of automation is greatly accelerating) This for the people who act & speak as though they have some god-like work ethic, is petrifying. I really think that deep down, they know their career is a limited deal, and once it's something a machine can do with 100 times less people (including them) that it will symbolize the end of their lives in a manner. Their self-worth is defined by whether or not they feel useful. If my memory recalls, a lot of these posters have uttered, in disdain, comments about "useless eaters" before. I see them worrying about becoming what they mock without a paycheck to feel superior anymore.

Two, these posters are also stuck in the thought rut that people will forever sit on their ass and do nothing, that it's a symptom of no ambition or interests to propel them from the couch. I think this also is a red flag, more about the posters than who they finger-point at. I think these folks have done a little self-reflection already and may fear they don't have much to offer up as a non-automated machine in their industry. Or so they think. New things will be tried & studied, our curiosity never abates unless you're too rat-raced to think about anything but work & bills. And in that case, in a nearly totally automated workforce society, you'll have the time to investigate new things and find new interests and uses for yourself to pitch to society. Curiosity leads to many roads. I also believe because of this, barter & trade will see a resurgence, and that goods or services for money will, over many future generations, will cease to exist. I doubt the folks off in that future will flip out nearly as much when their economic page turns.

a reply to: beezzer

So, lets go over this again...

Why cant the economy exist outside of this

who said the economy and all of capitalism will go away

missing the point again

a reply to: Nyiah

I don't think it's that complicated.

People want something for nothing. Or did I miss the point?

a reply to: beezzer

yes you missed the point entirely