Alien conflicts

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

Yep. Captain panties.

The sad thing about David Jacobs is he could have got all the used panties he wanted out of vending machines in Japan.

I guess that's why we never hear about Japanese UFO abduction researchers.... too busy at the vending machines


Anyway, back on track.. the only "Alien Conflict" I see is conflict between people who have a need to believe that the Aliens are here on Earth and those who say "prove it".

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

So take my challenge.
Show me one scientist or exobiologist that has provided as much information about the aliens as Budd Hopkins has.

Good luck, undergrad. I'll wait right here for your answer.

Come on kitten, blind me with science.

Show me one thing Budd Hopkins supposedly "revealed" about aliens which could be independently proven by science.


I'd call you an old man but that would be demeaning.... to old wise men.

So, you can't meet the challenge. You can't name a single scientist or "exobiologist" who has documented more information about aliens than Budd Hopkins did. And he was an artist by profession.

Then you admit to arguing from a position of ignorance, because you have no idea what information Hopkins documented. Not a very scientific position, jade.

I knew you'd fail that challenge, jade, and you knew it too.

originally posted by: Scdfa

Basically, her argument is that "aliens aren't here because we can't go there."

That argument is specious, and thin as tissue paper, and frankly, it isn't the position of an intelligent mind.

LOL WHUT!?!?

When on ATS have I -EVER- made that argument?

This just proves how little you read of my posts here.

I have never argued aliens aren't here because we can't go there or they can't get here.


In fact.....

I've pointed out in the SPACE forum plenty of credible SEARCHES for things which would be detectable from star travelling aliens...

Do you only read UFO/Aliens stuff?!? Clearly you never venture out of this forum.

Interstellar travel is not impossible, even for us with our current technology so why would I ascribe that to aliens which on average would be millions if not billions of years older than us due to our Solar System's relatively young age?

No, my challenge to anyone with an alien visitation claim is come with good, hard evidence which can be independently verified which leaves the ETH as "the best fit" for the data gathered.

Science.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

Budd was a mess on his own. @9:09




here is what happened to what Hopkins documented
ufotrail.blogspot.com...

She explained that following Budd's death in 2011, his colleagues, primarily David Jacobs, Leslie Kean, Peter Robbins and Jed Turnbull, sorted his UFO material. Portions of his work were boxed and stacked for a couple of weeks in an unsecured hallway in Hopkins' New York house until the boxes were relocated. The boxes were adjacent to a tenant's room and individuals unknown to anyone living in the house would often come and go. During those weeks, bags of letters from potential abductees and other Hopkins' research materials were piled on the public street curb for garbage collection the following morning - circumstances one would not interpret to demonstrate assigning particularly high value to the material and its security.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: JackHill
For instance, there is no way explain how something can travel through walls by today's understanding.

One century ago it wasn't possible to know how modern computers work, or cellphones.

It means little when we look back at our own achievements thorugh time.

There are no physical laws of a century ago which have been overturned. They've just been augmented or added on to but that at least in the macro-world scale we exist in pretty much is over.

Physics has found most of the "low hanging fruit".

The main research in physics now is either at massive energies/pressures/densities (particle physics), extremely small scale (quantum physics) or extremely large scales (astrophysics with regards to cosmology and the structure of the universe).

In other words, it is highly unlikely we've missed something which would overturn classical Newtonian physics and Relativity. The same physical laws govern the entire universe and that's been widely proven so its not likely "they" would have some separate physics, they would be working with and around the same physical laws we work with and around, just with better technology.

"Physics" is an EVOLVING science in an EVOLVING civilization. Eventually, thing like 'go through walls' will be explained. Like I said, ONE century ago people WON'T have an explanation for=cellphones or modern computers, because simply they STILL didn't reach the level of necessary knowledge.

Being a person of 'science' as you claim to be, you're very little minded IMO.

Actually people a century ago knew quite a bit about electromagnetism and the electromagnetic spectrum and it was the era where the beginnings of Einstein's relativity were known and debated within academic circles. Electronic computers were theorized and vacuum tubes were doing basic computing within a decade. Radio was also being used for communication. Combining it with telephony had made its way into engineering papers of the early 1910s so.......

Analogy fail.

Try googling "1915 Year in Science" next time...

I get your general point, but you missed mine. Nothing we've learned in the last 100 years has replaced anything we've known before to the point of physics breaking down and having to start all over again which is part of what would be required to believe many UFO claims.

Even Arthur C. Clarke's quote of a "sufficiently advanced technology appearing as magic" still requires it to adhere to the laws of physics.

Oh God, move it a couple of centuries back if you like, I don't mind, you do perfectly understood my point, stop playing smartass, you're quite the opposite.

Imagine that I give a cellphone to an average US citizen back in 1915, I show him for a while, but of course, he's completely lost about how it works. Then I leave, and he decides later to share his particular finding with every science man he finds. Wonder how they will react? No need to further imagine this scenario. Take the Walton case, the Hill's case, and the reaction from the scientific community. It will be a perfect match. No doubt at all.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

Yep. Captain panties.

The sad thing about David Jacobs is he could have got all the used panties he wanted out of vending machines in Japan.

I guess that's why we never hear about Japanese UFO abduction researchers.... too busy at the vending machines

Anyway, back on track.. the only "Alien Conflict" I see is conflict between people who have a need to believe that the Aliens are here on Earth and those who say "prove it".

No, jade, the sad thing is that Dr. David Jacobs, who you so scientifically refer to as captain panties, has also revealed more information about aliens than ANY scientist or "exobiologist".

That's the "sad thing".

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

Budd was a mess on his own. @9:09

Oh yeah! I think I saw that posted on a great rational UFO blog by a former believer in all this crap called The UFO trail..

I've learned a lot about lesser known aspects of UFOlogy there.

I still think the most fruitful line of research in UFOlogy is studying the personalities who surround it on the lecture circuit.

Not one one passes the credibility test. Even Richard Dolan has fallen down the rabbit hole re: "Roswell" slides.

originally posted by: JackHill
Imagine that I give a cellphone to an average US citizen back in 1915, I show him for a while, but of course, he's completely lost about how it works.

Fine, now imagine if you gave it to a 1915 era radio engineer or physicist.

You know.. qualified professionals who might know something about electromagnetism?

Still think they'd be lost?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

You miss the point, again. People with MEMORIES about ALIEN encounters contact people like Jacobs, not the other way around. It's not like Jacobs go from place to place hypnotyzing folks as a magician and implanting 'memories' at will to make some bucks from it.

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

You miss the point, again. People with MEMORIES about ALIEN encounters contact people like Jacobs, not the other way around. It's not like Jacobs go from place to place hypnotyzing folks as a magician and implanting 'memories' at will to make some bucks from it.

False memory syndrome. Look into it. It is induced by trauma. Then they go to someone like Jacobs or Hopkins who tell them, no, their uncle didn't molest them, it was space aliens..

Which is more comforting?

a reply to: JadeStar

Best fit is the issue. Something neither needs to be the best fit, nor does it need to have rock solid proof to be right. If something is true, it continues to be so despite whether it best fits the evidence people have or do not have. Something skeptics forget while demanding everything fit into Occam's Razor.

Speculation that is plausible does not hurt. Only blind belief which is demanded upon others to believe as well. Which is not what is occurring here. No one needs nor should need concrete proof of alien visitation to speculate on it. Nor is concrete proof required for people to discuss others claims and whether they have any merit, nor to speculate, if they do, what it might mean.

Would someone please explain to me why every discussion on aliens must devolve and be hijacked into people demanding proof of alien visitation before discussion on alien hypotheticals is even allowed to occur? Is people considering the possibilities of aliens truly that threatening to you?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill
Imagine that I give a cellphone to an average US citizen back in 1915, I show him for a while, but of course, he's completely lost about how it works.

Fine, now imagine if you gave it to a 1915 era radio engineer or physicist.

You know.. qualified professionals who might know something about electromagnetism?

Still think they'd be lost?

Probably. In any case, on the abduction scenario, the subject is unable to fight back. It's on the bibliography, extensively studied for decades. Did you miss that class? Or just choose to ignore it because it's inconvenient and don't fit you personal desires about how a 'first contact' should be? Oh, I see it now, it was all about ego after all...

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

So take my challenge.
Show me one scientist or exobiologist that has provided as much information about the aliens as Budd Hopkins has.

Good luck, undergrad. I'll wait right here for your answer.

Come on kitten, blind me with science.

Show me one thing Budd Hopkins supposedly "revealed" about aliens which could be independently proven by science.


I'd call you an old man but that would be demeaning.... to old wise men.

So, you can't meet the challenge. You can't name a single scientist or "exobiologist" who has documented more information about aliens than Budd Hopkins did. And he was an artist by profession.

Then you admit to arguing from a position of ignorance, because you have no idea what information Hopkins documented. Not a very scientific position, jade.

I knew you'd fail that challenge, jade, and you knew it too.

AFAIK - We've yet to find out ANYTHING about extraterrestrial aliens. And you've yet to provide anything which would win Budd Hopkins a Nobel Prize.

And if you don't think finding something out about aliens which could be scientifically verified wouldn't win you a Nobel Prize then you are beyond delusional.

a reply to: JadeStar

Not one one passes the credibility test. Even Richard Dolan has fallen down the rabbit hole re: "Roswell" slides.

this is how he looked when he was credible

and now?

he's just a dirty hippy. coincidence?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: JackHill

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: Scdfa
You show me one exobiologist who has uncovered as much information about aliens as Budd Hopkins did. And he was an abstract artist by profession, for god's sake.

You're in college, where some people fail science.

I would have guessed standup comedian... Apparently some people fail at that too.

Budd Hopkins? The art guy who hypnotized people and fed them leading questions? Didn't he hang out with that David Jacobs weirdo?

You miss the point, again. People with MEMORIES about ALIEN encounters contact people like Jacobs, not the other way around. It's not like Jacobs go from place to place hypnotyzing folks as a magician and implanting 'memories' at will to make some bucks from it.

False memory syndrome. Look into it. It is induced by trauma. Then they go to someone like Jacobs or Hopkins who tell them, no, their uncle didn't molest them, it was space aliens..

Which is more comforting?

Again, sigh:

PEOPLE with MEMORIES about alien visitations recur to people like Jacobs because, basically, NO ONE else would. Not the government, not the 'scientific community', no one.

I suppose we're facing a massive plague that's causing random people, completely fall apart from each other, to REMEMBER little grey things entering their houses at day, at night, interrupting thir walks, their driving, leaving PHYSICAL marks on their bodies, causing that members of the same family REMEMBER the SAME things, causing people to REALLY PHYSICALLY disappear according to the close witness who are unable to find them, and so on.

Do the scientific community have an explanation for that? Please, enlighten us.

a reply to: JadeStar

Oh yeah! I think I saw that posted on a great rational UFO blog by a former believer in all this crap called The UFO trail..

Yeah, I updated my post. All his research got divided up and a lot ended up in the garbage. Absolutely no protocols were followed.

a reply to: JackHill

Do the scientific community have an explanation for that? Please, enlighten us.

yes they does

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

Let me explain it to you since its not clear to you.

You wanted someone to follow a standard to "prove" something to you.

I would ask you, though: What test, what study established this to be definitive proof that alien abductions claims are in fact simply sleep paralysis? What universities were involved, and how many alien abductees were studied? How long did the study go on?

Apparently this standard doesn't apply to anything you have claimed. What test, what study established definitive proof for alien contact? What universities were involved...etc.,

and then

I will point to what the real research, done at a real university found:

First it is pretty clear that Harvard did not "support" Mack's research nor was it "done" at Harvard. This was something he did on his own.
Next, this "real" research was wrong so It doesn't even meet your standards to begin with.

Either way, Budd Hopkins was right and Mack was wrong.

but...but...the nuance! Budd Hopkins doesn't qualify by your standards anyway.
What "real" research at a real university have you ever sited?

Here are some links to real research (that I am sure are wrong too but do meet your academic standards) for you to get started on your research since you seem so interested in understanding the academic point of view.

Memory Distortion in People Reporting Abduction by Aliens

The Construction of Space Alien Abduction Memories

The Ordinary Nature of Abduction Memories

At any rate, rather than try to figure out your convoluted "nuance" of who is right and who is wrong and when to apply standards and when not to, I will just hold you to your standard of "real research, done at real universities". Its as simple as that.

So you got any to back up any of your claims?

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: JadeStar

Best fit is the issue. Something neither needs to be the best fit,

To deduce what's really going on uh, yes it does.

Science works with best fits all the time. It's a tool. Otherwise you're guessing. It's speculation and not science.

nor does it need to have rock solid proof to be right.

To prove the greatest discovery in the history of greatest discoveries it damn well be. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Always have, always will.

If something is true, it continues to be so despite whether it best fits the evidence people have or do not have.

Without out testing how does one find truth?

Truths existed all around us for centuries when we believed lightning was thrown down by the gods.

Scientific observation and experimentation revealed the truth about lightening. It would do the same about UFOs if people on both sides allowed it.

Believers can believe whatever they want but that does not make it a physical truth. Occam's Razor is sound reasoning and a tool of many to cut out the b.s. not just about UFOs but anything untrue.

You want to throw it out because your evidence doesn't pass muster. Pure and simple.

Want things to change? Gather better evidence. Get better data. Test it. Publish it. Let it be critiqued and confirmed or rejected.

Otherwise it's just speculative in the paranormal realm like ghosts, faeries, angels, etc.

Speculation that is plausible does not hurt.

No it doesn't, but speculation based on an assumption with little supportive data: ie: that aliens are actually here, is pretty silly to be honest.

Might as well speculate about angels and devils while we're at it.

Scientific speculation is based on sound data of what might be going on, detected, determined, classified, clarified, imaged, not just imagined and not not just based on stories.

Would someone please explain to me why every discussion on aliens must devolve and be hijacked into people demanding proof of alien visitation before discussion on alien hypotheticals is even allowed to occur?

Because believes act like tomorrow's headline has already occurred.

There is an old saying old men like Scdfa probably heard about a cart and a horse.

Is people considering the possibilities of aliens truly that threatening to you?

Nope. I hope to find aliens some day. I'd love it if the UFO stories were true but the more fruitful line of research these days isn't asking what someone saw, it's looking for life on other worlds where they may reside.

That's my area of study and what I hope will be my future livelihood. Look at the bottom of my posts....

I am open minded to not throw the entire UFO subject out with the hoaxes and quacks but there is precious little testable data in any of it.

That said, no one knows what tomorrow's headline might be. Aliens could show up, land and I'd be glued to every single report on the subject. That has not happened.

So while I am hopeful we are in an inhabited galaxy I am equally doubtful of dubious claims of people describing aliens more likely straight out of central casting rather than the center of a star cluster.

originally posted by: Scdfa
No, jade, the sad thing is that Dr. David Jacobs, who you so scientifically refer to as captain panties, has also revealed more information about aliens than ANY scientist or "exobiologist".

That's the "sad thing".

The Captain Panties thing was mine, Scudfail.

What Jacobs revealed was more information about his creepy fetishes than anyone should have to know.

The sad thing is your inappropriate use of "quotes".

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

So, they don't.

Thanks for clarifying it to all of us.

Multiple witnesses, same/very similar memories, external witnesses, body marks corroborating memories, physical traces on the surroundings, UFO's sightings around.