Alien conflicts

a reply to: Puppylove

So why is it we need to PROVE that aliens are here, before we can speculate on this large mass of info, and whether some it might be true, and if so, what that might mean.

I don't know about you, but I'm not comfortable calling every single person who's had these experiences a liar, or delusional.

Beautifully said, and it cuts right to the heart of the argument.

I personally have encountered aliens.

For all her scientific bluster, Jadestar's entire argument is that I am lying or delusional.

That's it. That's really all she has.
She will admit to not being present at these events.
Hell, she must admit to not even being born yet when these events happened.

But she is so intellectually superior to me, so vastly more intelligent that I am, that she knows somehow that the events of my life simply didn't happen.
Simply did not happen. I'm either lying or delusional.

Or I mistook Venus or a satellite for alien beings that come into my house.

In one breath, jadestar says "nobody knows about aliens", but in her next breath, jadestar knows my encounters didn't happen.

Hmmm...most illogical, Spock would say.

You see, I may not have addressed this clearly, but the notion of equivalency between our opposing viewpoints is false.
My account holds far more weight than her denial of my account.
It is absurd to think otherwise.


The testimony of a witness to an event is important, and unless it is established that the witness is lying or delusional, his testimony must be accepted as substantial evidence of that event.

Now jadestar states that the witness testimony is wrong.
Although she was not present at the event, and has no evidence that the witness is lying, delusional, or incorrect, jadestar just says the witness testimony is wrong.

Her argument has no weight at all. The witness testimony does.

It's that simple.
We must recognize that a false equivalency is being accepted here, and put a stop to it.
These two arguments do not have the same weight.

The entire argument of the denialists boils down, through the rhetoric, to one simple argument:

Millions of people are lying, delusional, or very, very incompetent witnesses.

They have nothing else but to attack the character, intelligence, and competence of millions of people.

Our side of the argument? What evidence do we have?

We have first hand accounts.
Multiple witnesses to an event.
Physical traces at landing sites.
Witnesses exposed to radiation.
Surgical scars.
Implants.
Tens of thousands of photographs.
Thousands of videos.
Radar signatures.
Public statements of world leaders stating UFOs may be extraterrestrial.
Public statements of world leaders stating UFOs ARE extraterrestrial.
Hundreds of incidents of military engagement with these vehicles,
which routinely outperform our technology.
Military personnel encountering disc shaped craft shutting down our missle silos
FOIA documents revealing the top level secrecy.
Whistleblowers admitting to cover-up.
Vehicles one mile wide, over Arizona, Texas, and the English Channel
flying saucer at O'Hare airport in broad daylight.

I could go on ad infinitum. Ad nauseum.

So drop once and for all this anti-intellectual notion that the two sides of the UFO debate have the same weight.
They do not.

They don't really have an argument. Saying " No you're wrong " to every witness and experiencer isn't an argument.
It's contradiction.

I'm reminded of the Monty Python's Flying Circus sketch, the argument clinic.
"I came here for an argument, this is just contradiction."
"No it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
"No it isn't!"
"Look, if I'm arguing with you, I must take up a contary position"
"Yes, well that's not just saying, no it isn't."
"Yes it is."
"No it isn't!"

The argument of whether or not aliens are here on Earth and abducting people is over. It was over long ago.
Let's move on. There is work to be done. This is important. In very big and hard to understand ways.

Let's get started.

a reply to: Scdfa

That enough sentences to make a thread.

a reply to: Scdfa

Spot on. Starred.

Good post Scdfa.

originally posted by: Scdfa



Our side of the argument? What evidence do we have?

We have first hand accounts.
Multiple witnesses to an event.
Physical traces at landing sites.
Witnesses exposed to radiation.
Surgical scars.
Implants.
Tens of thousands of photographs.
Thousands of videos.
Radar signatures.
Public statements of world leaders stating UFOs may be extraterrestrial.
Public statements of world leaders stating UFOs ARE extraterrestrial.
Hundreds of incidents of military engagement with these vehicles,
which routinely outperform our technology.
Military personnel encountering disc shaped craft shutting down our missle silos
FOIA documents revealing the top level secrecy.
Whistleblowers admitting to cover-up.
Vehicles one mile wide, over Arizona, Texas, and the English Channel
flying saucer at O'Hare airport in broad daylight.

I could go on ad infinitum. Ad nauseum.

I'm glad you laid all of that out. I look at this list and it makes me think of all the excuses given to deter the reality of alien contact. The naysayers are pulling out all the stops to keep this swept under the rug either due to fear or allegiance to the suppression campaign. This is what we hear in response to your list starting from top to bottom in order:


Not credible, need more witnesses.
Now with more witnesses, needs multiple photos/videos from said witnesses
Must be made by manmade craft
Symptoms that arise must come from an preexisting condition
Delusion
Delusion + must see strict scientific report, nothing shown convinces
All must be hoaxed, ET visitation is out of the question
All must be CGI or Earth phenomena, ET visitation is out of the question
The CIA and intelligence agencies were playing tricks with radar
Just a coverup for secret ops projects
Just a coverup for secret ops projects
Misperception/observations compromised due to things like "ball lightening"
More misperception brought about by psychological problems/alleged drug use
Trouble accepting the validity of said documents/had to be hoaxed
Attacks whistleblower credibility and credentials (which can be verified)/only out for monetary gain
Had to be a blimp, secret op project. Pics/video or it didn't happen...we know where that leads
Delusion/had to be earth made craft

Bonus: When backs against the fence on some of these issues, demand impossible proofs like the infamous "where's your testable evidence", knowing how hard that is to come by in this field.

It's really becoming laughable at this point.
I know the intellectual capacity is there for members to acknowledge this phenomena due to everything on your list and more. Outside of the 2 reasons I gave above, it makes absolutely no sense why some would still choose to divert away from this reality despite being knowledgeable of the above in your quote.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

There are a wide variety of phenomena that occur amongst normal healthy people. Its really time to move away from the "they must all be delusional" argument because it is completely false. There simply is no way around it. People experience things.

Amen and a big testify on that sentiment.

The ongoing debate and discussion has always been limited by the terms of engagement - we can only communicate the concepts and contexts that are available to us.

Its a starting point and progress is going to be slow and difficult. so, a yeah....im baffled

originally posted by: ScdfaI personally have encountered aliens.

For all her scientific bluster, Jadestar's entire argument is that I am lying or delusional.

No it's not.

I don't know what happened with you. I've asked you for details and you promised to provide them (in another thread) but I'm still waiting. What's the hold up? You said you were on a ship? Ok, describe the interior. You said you were taken to a base and it was full of other people. Describe it. Describe them.

All you have given is a vague story and nothing in the way of information beyond an outline.

And yes, people do lie, people also are delusional, people are victims of hoaxes or experimentation, all of these happen with a LOT more frequency on a daily basis than what even the most optimistic UFO research would think was the daily frequency of interstellar visitation.

As yet we have not established even one extraterrestrial has set foot on Earth so which is more likely..... delusion, lies, hoaxes (all of which have been proven) people used as part of psychological experiments by other people (also documented) or your "space brothers from the Pleiades" abducting you?

HINT: Most rational people would list Space Brothers from the Pleiades last...

All you do is rant against science but you have yet to offer ANYTHING which can be scientifically investigated.

If I believed I were taken by aliens from another planet you can bet I'd be trying to gather as much evidence to prove it as possible. I'd also be paying attention to every detail of the interior of the spaces I was taken to. I probably wouldn't go posting on forums shouting down people who ask for such evidence unless I was sure I had it and I would most certainly offer that evidence up for investigation.

If you can not provide the promised details of the events you keep saying give you all the evidence you need to believe, (oh wait I'm sorry, KNOW) that ET is here then obviously I have to conclude that you just like hearing yourself rant and don't really want answers but rather, attention, like a lot of abductees.

Ever go to a UFO convention? Everyone wants to be special....

I don't know what happened to you and never have claimed I did so stop putting words in my mouth. I have some suspicions what may have happened but lack data so I would like to hear the full story, start to finish with every detail.

So I'm asking again..... Are you going to actually provide the details this time?

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
Bonus: When backs against the fence on some of these issues, demand impossible proofs like the infamous "where's your testable evidence", knowing how hard that is to come by in this field.

Then the problem is not with those who ask for testable evidence. The problem is with why such evidence is so hard to come by in this field.

Deal with that and you will have made progress. Otherwise it's just stories, ambiguity and stuff which can be explained without evoking "OMG ALIENZ!!!!"

At best, everything you and Scfda have listed would be inconclusive regarding the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. But if you look at a lot of that "evidence" you'll find real problems with it.

But wait, the government that "covers up" UFOs is also releasing FOIA documents which you think proves they are ET?!?!

Do you not see the huge leap of logic you're making here!?

It's really becoming laughable at this point.
I know the intellectual capacity is there for members to acknowledge this phenomena due to everything on your list and more. Outside of the 2 reasons I gave above, it makes absolutely no sense why some would still choose to divert away from this reality despite being knowledgeable of the above in your quote.

Have you read this?

Physical Evidence Related to UFO Reports:
The Proceedings of a Workshop Held at the Pocantico
Conference Center, Tarrytown, New York,
September 29 - October 4,1997 - Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 12, NO. 2, pp. 179-229,1998 0892-33 10198 - 1998 Society for Scientific Exploration

a reply to: TrueMessiah

Symptoms that arise must come from an preexisting condition
Delusion

You convinced me. You guys are delusional.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah


Bonus: When backs against the fence on some of these issues, demand impossible proofs like the infamous "where's your testable evidence", knowing how hard that is to come by in this field.

Ever cross your mind there might be a reason why it's so hard to come by?

a reply to: moth115

Lemuria and Atlantean War they weren't getting along to well...lol

originally posted by: Scdfa

I could go on ad infinitum. Ad nauseum.

And frequently do.

according to UFO lore the little grays and the reptilians have been directly at war with each other in the past and at present are in a proxy war with each other using less developed races like humans. The Grays "arrange" for alien technology to occasionally fall into human hands (governments) and humans subsequently end up using that tech against the reptilians. The reptilians for thier part influence human to subvert them. The reptilians allegedly were on earth before humans were and resent humans and are trying to covertly get them to destroy themselves. occasionally they let thier technology fall into human hands but not to the degree the grays do. That's according to web lore on the aliens at several websites.

a reply to: draknoir2

Ever cross your mind there might be a reason why it's so hard to come by?

well, it is kind of dumb to ask for something you know doesn't exist. But they say they have it. Its like when someone owes you 10 bucks and you know they dont have it and you say "do you have my 10 bucks" and they say "I have it" and you say the infamous "well, where is it?" knowing how hard that is to come by in this field...I mean knowing that they don't have it. Then they say "its scattered around like there was some traces of some change there yesterday, I swear" and your like "where?" and they say "I don't know but I heard someone talking about it. Wadda you think, their lyin or delusional?" And your like "no" and they're like "yeah you do, you think we are all crazy". and your like "no I just want my 10 bucks" and they go "all right, all right man, back off were not all crazy you know"

originally posted by: JackHill


'Hey dad you know I think I have this crazy dream, because obviously can't be real right? I mean, little big headed things entering my room, you know... I just mention it because believe it felt so real'

'Hey son, guess what, I had the same dream, I remember basically the same things, damn! It felt so real'

Houston, we have a problem!

Schizophrenics are known to have quite similar and stereotyped delusions and hallucinations. People's brains are not so different from one another.

a reply to: Scdfa


Tens of thousands of POOR quality photographs you mean often first looked at by people with NO understanding of photography and in this digital age the exif data for the image removed !

It's also the same regarding videos the bulk of them posted on here linked from youtube etc are smartphone videos of lights near airports or over cities with the object in the distance don't YOU think it's strange we NEVER get a video from someone BELOW or CLOSER to the object even when filmed over a large city, I wonder why

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: Unity_99


Still no pics yet unity are we EVER going to see something to back up your claims of seeing ufo's on a REGULAR basis

At least there's no condescension and vitriol to her posts, which counts for a lot in my book.

Well Unity_99 claimed that they & their family see ufo's on a regular basis were they live and that somehow they communicated with them, when I first heard the claim I said take some pictures or video but of course then comes the excuse "They would know we had done that and wouldn't come back" how VERY convenient

a reply to: JadeStar

And yes, people do lie, people also are delusional, people are victims of hoaxes or experimentation, all of these happen with a LOT more frequency on a daily basis than what even the most optimistic UFO research would think was the daily frequency of interstellar visitation.

You're guessing. You have absolutely NO idea of the frequency of "victims of hoaxes" and "experimentation" versus the frequency of "interstellar" visitation. Aren't you of the opinion that NONE of these are alien visitation?

Let's see how you established that ratio:
What is the frequency of alien visitation?
I'll wait for your answer.

As yet we have not established even one extraterrestrial has set foot on Earth so which is more likely.....

Hold it right there - What do you mean "we"?
Don't you mean "you"?

Because for me and millions of others, it is indeed established fact.
You've been informed of hundreds of these incidents.
"You" have made a deliberate decision to disbelieve it. That's a choice you made.

So, just as I said in my last post, your entire argument boils down to this:

so which is more likely..... delusion, lies, hoaxes (all of which have been proven) people used as part of psychological experiments by other people (also documented) or your "space brothers from the Pleiades" abducting you?

See, folks? I'm not even sure why jadestar replied to my last post, all she is doing is confirming everything I had to say.
I told you jadestar's position amounted to nothing more than calling us "lying or deluded."
And that is what she does, again and again.

It really is no argument at all, it is simply contradiction.
And it is a position without substance; she can provide no evidence that I'm deluded, or lying.
That's because I'm not deluded or lying, I'm stating the facts of what happened.

Let's take a look at what she is saying in this quote, she says it is documented that people have been used as part of psychological experiments by other people that have convinced them they were abducted by aliens.
And she suggests that is more likely than anyone actually being abducted by aliens.

Pure bull, folks.
First of all, when did this happen? To who? How many people? In what year? What people did this? And where are the victims, and what do they have to say about it? How did they convince people they were being abducted by aliens?

Jade asks which is more likely:
"Lies or delusion", and I quote, "or your "space brothers from the Pleiades" abducting you?

Wow.
Space brothers from the Pleiades?
What an ignorant,offensive characterization, far removed from the reality of most abduction claims.
Jadestar reveals both her ignorance and hostility with that one, and a childish approach to a very serious issue.
I guess we're just lucky she didn't say "Marvin the Martian" from the bugs bunny cartoons.

And it all boils down to that one point for jade.
Which is more likely, lies and delusion, or abductions being real? She knows my answer, but what she is really saying is she knows what really happened better than those of us who were actually present at these events.
We were there, and she wasn't even born yet, but hey, she is an undergrad with a microscope, so she knows best.

She thinks herself so superior, so much more rational and intelligent, that she has actually convinced herself she knows better than I do the events of my life.

She's right. Some people are deluded. Jadestar is deluded.

Here she even gives me a hint as to the right answer to her one argument; lying or deluded, or alien contact?

HINT: Most rational people would list Space Brothers from the Pleiades last...

See, she's "rational". And she speaks with authority for "rational" people everywhere.
God bless her sophomore wisdom, for telling me what happened to my family in 1966.

One of us is deluded, alright.

I will leave it to you, the reader, to decide if it is jade or I.

Now, after she just finished telling me how much more likely it was that I'm lying or deluded than being abducted by "space brothers from the Pleiades", jade claims to have said no such thing!
I kid you not! Look:

I don't know what happened to you and never have claimed I did so stop putting words in my mouth.

But her next sentence reveals her true thoughts:

I don't know what happened to you and never have claimed I did so stop putting words in my mouth. I have some suspicions what may have happened but lack data so I would like to hear the full story, start to finish with every detail.

Hmmm...I wonder what those "suspicions" might be...

Anyone thinking "lies, hoax, or delusion"?

I'll bet she isn't thinking Space Brothers.

But seriously, how absolutely offensive for her to even suggest that I am wrong about traumatic events of my life.

This is just as unacceptable as telling any other victim of sexual assault or kidnapping that it didn't happen.
It is NOT acceptable.

And I am not being insensitive, I stand by that analogy.
Abductions are non-consensual kidnapping and sexual assault, and this demands to be taken seriously.
I lived through traumatic, horrifying, abductions.
Being taken against my will, and having my reproductive cells harvested, against my will.
I was used to father hybrid children, against my will.

I will not accept jade mocking this by describing my abductors as my "Space Brothers from the Pleiades".
You think jade, or anyone, has the right to tell me it didn't happen?
You think that if she had more data jadestar could "explain to me what really happened"?

And at the end, she has the nerve to ask this"

So I'm asking again..... Are you going to actually provide the details this time?

Well, I could fill books with the details of my abductions. And I probably should.
Details of the ships, inside and outside.
Details of the aliens appearances, which differ enormously, even on the same ship.
Details of what they wear.
Details of what telepathy feels like to experience.
Details of what they "say", to me, and to each other.
Details of alien behavior, and their attitudes towards us.
Details of the smaller craft.
Details of the larger facilities I was taken to.
Details of the reactions of other abductees in my presence.
Details of a first generation hybrid child.
Details of passing through solid closed doors.
Details of atmospheric differences and air pressure inside some ships.
Details of having surgery while awake.
Details of whether they know the future.

I have details, but does anyone here actually believe writing them down for Jadestar would be productive?

I'd ask my Space Brothers from the Pleiades what they think, but they don't believe Jadestar exists.

a reply to: wmd_2008

Tens of thousands of POOR quality photographs you mean often first looked at by people with NO understanding of photography and in this digital age the exif data for the image removed !

Nope. And I'm willing to limit the photographic evidence to pre-digital film only.

a reply to: moth115
Hey who knows dude. If there are actually aliens coming and going from this planet then yes its almost a given certainty that they would have disagreements and have contact with each other some with communication others with weapons. A space opera in the making.

Or it could all just be baloney and humans are the beastest thing that has ever evolved in this universe and everything else out there is merely just lifeless and barren planets all billions and trillions and countless numbers of them. Aren't we lucky? Were the only thing which exists in the whole of the universe.

So which is more likely? Pick and choose, because I do not think any of our opinions matter.

a reply to: Scdfa

Why limit it or did they stop visitng when digital arrived