Losing my Religion

a reply to: undo

I think I understand your positions (at least on subjects we've talked about). I just find your posts convoluted sometimes because you go off on a tangent or make widespread generalized connections. They are confusing and hard to follow sometimes because I can't understand for the life of me how you've come to some conclusions.

Like atheism... For example you state:

...my premise was that atheism in the hands of global leaders like stalin, who was clearly mean to everybody but had a particular beef against the indigenous catholics (i may not always agree with the hierarchy but i don't have a problem with catholic people), can be extremely dangerous.

Here is what I find wrong about that point of view:

"atheism in the hands of" (fill in the blank) "can be extremely dangerous"

This is false because atheism isn't dangerous. There is absolutely nothing about atheism that would cause it to be a driving or influential force behind someone's actions. It is only the word used to describe people who don't believe in gods. There are no scriptures of any kind we follow and adhere to. There is nothing except the fact that an atheist doesn't believe in gods. You try and make the connection to it having something to do with Stalin and others killing people, religious and otherwise. You are wrong to do that. Because atheism is only a label.

Now I think I understand why you've tried to link atheism with mass murderers and science etc. You're looking at the things a lot of atheists have in common. We tend to support a lot of the same ideas and concepts. Commonalities amongst atheists does not define atheism though.

Remember awhile back when I used a silly leprechaun example to try and illustrate how your view on atheism is wrong? Maybe try to understand that again, please.

I may be wrong, but I haven't seen you claim anywhere that religion in the hands of men of power is just as dangerous as you think atheism is. Do you feel it is? I feel it is more dangerous. Because unlike atheism, religions actually have texts and scriptures. I know you've studied them so I don't have to point out how they can be interpreted by those who wish to use them to justify their horrifying actions.

I think you mix anti-theism and atheism. Atheism cannot be a driving force or motivation for anything. Do you think Stalin believed in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy? Maybe his lack of believe in those things influenced his desire to kill people? ..Obviously not. Again, atheism is only a term used to describe the lack of belief in gods. NOTHING else. Perhaps Stalin was also an anti-theist. I don't know if he was or not. But if he was, then that could be an explanation for his murdering of Catholics? Anti-religious and lack of belief in gods are not the same thing. And just because they can go hand in hand, doesn't mean you can try to connect the two in the way you have.

originally posted by: undo
erm atheist world leaders not slaughtering people based on things like:

gender, religion, lack of religion, financial bracket, race and mental/emotional/physical health.

Their atheism had nothing to do with any of those things.

Show me where they said, "I'm killing because I don't believe in God."

I can show you plenty where people said they are killing in the name of God.

I guess one question I would like deeper insight from you would be about atheism. Why you've tried to turn it into something it's not. How you decided it was dangerous. Do you even understand what we've (Ghost has also tried correcting you on atheism) been trying to say about why you're wrong?

As for other subjects.. I'm not interested in you trying to prove to me the entirety of your world view. I think we can both agree it's complex and covers a wide range of topics. Like you said, whole chapters if not books could be written. The same can be said of what I believe and why. Since we've also drifted onto the subject of ancient tech you might want to go into that a little more? No problem if not.

I'm curious as to how you gauge the credibility of the people and information they present on the subject? What are your standards of evidence? Any comments on what I said about the charlatans?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: misskat1

Congratualtions on being BORN AGAIN!

'Aint it fun to be part of the real world?

its not 'fun' to be a part of the real 'world' and world crowds. Every day is a struggle of power, money, death, disease, nothing fun about it.

I'll stick with being born again with Jesus and eternal life, you all can have the world, you know who the prince of it is.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Ghost147

erm atheist world leaders not slaughtering people based on things like:

gender, religion, lack of religion, financial bracket, race and mental/emotional/physical health.

Really?

They wouldn't kill for money, power, eugenics and greed right?

a reply to: undo

WakeUpBeer does a great job explaining your continued logical fallacies.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

example: the holodomor was enacted with the statement by stalin, that the indigenous religious people of the ukraine would learn that some supernatural god was not going to save them, as they were forcibly starved to death in their own homes by stalin. that god was the government, and their deaths would teach the other soviets, what side their bread was buttered on (paraphrased).

scientists were placing bets with each other on if the deeply religious would stoop to cannibalizing one another, something clearly against catholic teachings. as a result, anyone caught cannibalizing to survive, was shot on the spot.

so while hitler was killing millions of jews, stalin was killing millions of catholics.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: WakeUpBeer
so while hitler was killing millions of jews, stalin was killing millions of catholics.

First of all, did you just mention Hitler as atheist?

I would strongly suggest to you following book: "The Pope and Mussolini: The Secret History of Pius XI and the Rise of Fascism in Europe", Pulitzer Prize winning book. You will find out that Hitler not just was not atheist, but you will find behind the curtain connection between Hitler, Mussolini and Pope Pius XI.

As for Stalin, you really think Stalin did what he has done because of Atheism?? It is interesting, as I used to read a lot about given period and still have Ukraine friends who's families know more about it, it seems that you don't know what major religion live in Ukraine, nor how religious those people are/were.

a reply to: SuperFrog

if you've read my previous statements, i don't think the hierarchy of the catholic church is actually a christian organization. i believe they were a political entity, all along. they hijacked christianity and twisted the hell out of it. the catholic people have been victims of their drive for more and more power, just as much as any other group. i mean, it wasn't gnostics or wiccans that were being accused of witchcraft and burnt at the stake during the witch hunts - it was ordinary, every day catholic women.

also, anybody that tries to convince me that hitler was a christian is barking up the wrong tree. hilter knowing full well that jesus would not have condoned a single thing he did, or even simply going to one of the 10 commandments, like thou shall not kill,is reason enough to know he was not a practicing christian. he also killed protestants and jehovah witnesses, btw. and no doubt, killed a few catholic jews while he was at it.

furthermore, the dude was into the occult, and by that i do not mean any derogatory connection between occultism and hitler's behaviour, but rather just pointing out the facts: he was not a christian.

a reply to: undo

That's great. They were assholes...

Nobody has denied they were assholes.

You fail to grasp that none of those things have anything to do with atheism. It is becoming increasingly frustrating. You have been asked why you continue to blame atheism for those horrible actions. All you do is provide examples of assholes being assholes, who happen to also be atheists.

As for Stalin he was clearly anti-theist. Being against religion is not the same thing as SIMPLY not believing any of it. It seems it was his anti religious stances, in part, which lead him to do some of those things.

Not atheism.

You never responded to my question about religious people in power. So I will ask again. Do you feel religion and power is just as dangerous as you feel atheism and power is? If not why not?

a reply to: SuperFrog

I recently did a thread about Hitler's religious views. While I made the case he was a Christian, of his own skewed flavor. I was forced to admit that he may have actually disdained religion, Christianity particularly. In the end I would say it's hard to know exactly what Hitler believed for certain. While he made numerous pro Christian statements and had alliances with the Church, he also made plenty of anti-Christian moves. Either way.. whatever he believed I think it's safe to say they were things mostly made up of his own inventions.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

As for Stalin he was clearly anti-theist. Being against religion is not the same thing as SIMPLY not believing any of it. It seems it was his anti religious stances, in part, which lead him to do some of those things.

Yes, and one doesn't have to be atheist to be anti-theist.

a reply to: undo

You've no idea how similar to your view of Vatican and Church organization Hitler's view was, only twist was that he blamed Jews for that.

This is another one of those issues where we will go back to me requesting evidence for what you write, while all literature on mater points that Hitler was not Atheist.

Here is little bits from Hitler's Main Campf:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Can it be more clear??

People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .

Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and ideological politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning.

www.nobeliefs.com...

well i personally feel we are all victims of lack of full revelation, so i don't hold anybody truly guilty of anything. i just point out what came to mind when i read stalin's statement that god was the government, and that try as they might, the ukrainians could not pray food into their bellies. even if they had, the soldiers were instructed to shoot anyone who wasn't starving.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

good point. i'm having trouble articulating how i think this could be relevant, as it just sounds like i'm saying atheists are always going to be evil if they are in power. which of course, is not true, but where the problem seems to be is when it's combined with a totalitarian form of government like communism or fascism.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

religious leaders, like idi amin? not good.

Not looking for a debate here, on whether or not these Old Testament laws are supposed to be followed today or not. I know there are arguments from both sides of that fence. Or whether these things were commanded by the real God of Christianity or not... As an atheist, these are the kinds of verses I find dangerous because of how they can be used by some people to justify some disgusting actions.

"Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13

Unless...

It's someone who doesn't listen to Priests: Deuteronomy 17:12
It's a witch: Exodus 22:17
It's a fortunetellers: Leviticus 20:27
They're gay: Leviticus 20:13
They're non believers: 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
They follower other religions: Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 17:2-5
They're false prophets: Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, Zechariah 13:3
They live in a town where anyone there worships another God: Deuteronomy 13:13-19
It's a women who is not virgins on their wedding night: Deuteronomy 22:20-21
They're working on the Sabbath: Exodus 31:12-15
They are the son of sinners: Isaiah 14:21
It's in the name of the Lord: Jeremiah 48:10
They strike their parents: Exodus 21:15
They curse their parents: Leviticus 20:9, Proverbs 20:20
They fornicate: Leviticus 21:9
They commit adultery: Leviticus 20:10
They blaspheme the Lord: Leviticus 24:10-16

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

yep that's precisely why i think there was more than one jehovah in the old testament.

a reply to: undo

I know you don't think all atheists are evil. So don't worry about that. You do sound like you're saying atheism is evil. I would disagree on that point. I think if you just changed atheist to anti-theism for your theories you'd make a lot more sense. Anti religious views could definitely be dangerous when combined with power. It depends on the person ofc.

That's the point we've been trying to make. That atheism is just a descriptor for a stance. Not a motivation or influence on any actions. The same can't be said for anti-theists. Those feelings could definitely turn into a negative agenda.

Edit to add: I don't think all religion is evil. In case you were wondering.

for your consideration:

3 men come to abraham's tent. he addresses them with titles typically thought to be only used when speaking about god. they inform him that sarah is going to be pregnant, even though she's way past the birthing years. then they tell him that they are on the way to see if the rumors are true about sodom and gomorrah. according to prior data attributed to god, he would not need to come down to the planet to see if the people of sodom and gomorrah were misbehaving. heck we could figure that out with satellite technology. so, what are the chances those 3 men were actually god and a couple of his angelic bodyguards? is it possible they were instead, the pharaoh and 2 bodyguards? maybe the people of sodom and gomorrah had stopped paying their taxes to pharaoh or something. i mean, we have no idea.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

fair enough

a reply to: undo

Well it's an interesting thought.

All I know for sure is I wish I had a time machine or way to sit back and observe the whole of humanity, from start to finish. Having that ability would be a heavy burden though, as insightful as it might be.