Forced to get Flu Shot - How can I decline?

a reply to: Prezbo369

For what it's worth, I don't have direct contact with our residents. I manage and push pencils around. If I told you everything I saw the CNA's do here, which I report, that grossly violates our infection control policies, you would have a cow. Their laziness and insubordination are the real threat. I exercise, in-service and audit my departments infection control responsibilities to a T.

Take it down a notch.

a reply to: boymonkey74

Hep b vaccination has a fantastic failure rate. I work with many people that have gone through the two shot process multiple times and are still not producing antibodies!

Polio is coming back.....as is smallpox. You didn't know this ?!?

I refused Hep b and I would refuse polio and any other vaccine.

I work in healthcare.

a reply to: HumberWarrior

Smallpox coming back also polio....I wonder why?.
Maybe idiots not getting vaccines is the cause and if they do return it is their fault.

originally posted by: Indigo5
A better analogy would be a gun rights advocate making his case by demanding to board an airplane with a loaded shotgun.

Sure, he might be trustworthy and not a wacko...that one flight might even get to it's destination with no issue.

But the more he flies on crowded airplanes with a loaded shotgun and the more people bumping around that crowded airplane with loaded shotguns...and people are going to start getting accidentally shot and bad things will happen.

Why not just demand people don't carry loaded shotguns onto planes...and if you MUST carry a loaded shotgun, then don't get on the plane.

Let's break this gem of an analogy down, since you claim mine is terrible.

A: A loaded shotgun is not created by nature.

B: Our bodies are not born with a natural ability to protect itself from a direct shotgun blast to the chest.

C: You assume that just because people bump into someone with a loaded shotgun, that "people are going to start getting accidentally shot and bad things will happen."

I don't know about you, but I was in the military, and I did quite a few things with loaded rifles (same basic firing mechanism as a shotgun) that bumped them and dropped them to the ground, and nobody ever got shot, and no bad things happened just because the firearm was getting bumped around.

See, what you're doing is using myths and hyperbole created by gun-control advocates and trying to use them as a factual basis for a bad analogy. Maybe we both should just not use analogies and leave it at that.

People have a right to a whole lot of things...but once that individual right puts innocent lives at risk...a Hospital has the obligation to step in and tell it's workers to get vaccinated, wash hands etc. He can stay vaccination free...but the Hospital isn't obligated to continue to employ him or risk their patients health in favor of his personal belief.

I'll repeat what I said earlier--I'm not arguing that the hospital doesn't have a right to demand its employees get a vaccination, as long as this was a stipulation of employment when the employee was hired.

originally posted by: eisegesis
a reply to: Prezbo369

For what it's worth, I don't have direct contact with our residents. I manage and push pencils around. If I told you everything I saw the CNA's do here, which I report, that grossly violates our infection control policies, you would have a cow. Their laziness and insubordination are the real threat. I exercise, in-service and audit my departments infection control responsibilities to a T.

You entered this thread claiming to have a working method for those wishing to avoid compulsory vaccinations that you were going to share, and claimed you worked in healthcare as your qualification to do so.....you cannot now worm yourself out from under the rock you put yourself under and expect to smell like roses.

And pointing at others who may or may not exist in an attempt to place yourself under a better light just comes across as pathetic considering the consequences your comments may have.

Take it down a notch.

Not while you continue to make posts like the ones you've made in this thread and while I still have the time to reply.

originally posted by: eisegesis
a reply to: Prezbo369

For what it's worth, I don't have direct contact with our residents. I manage and push pencils around. If I told you everything I saw the CNA's do here, which I report, that grossly violates our infection control policies, you would have a cow. Their laziness and insubordination are the real threat. I exercise, in-service and audit my departments infection control responsibilities to a T.

Take it down a notch.

That's good to hear and I feel a little better about you now. Yeah I believe nurses/janitors are the primary causes of infection control failures.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Sorry, if you're unvaccinated, I want you nowhere near me or mine in regard to healthcare. You have a choice. So do I.

Right, choose to go to a different hospital or healthcare facility. Your demands are not the responsibility of the individual healthcare worker. I'm not going to decide what I put in my body based on other people's desires and commands.

The incessant demands from other people to tell me what to do with my own health and welfare is tiring very quickly. I agree that people who work in healthcare, if they can, should get vaccinated simply because it goes toward their goal of helping remedy people's ailments instead of creating them. But, regardless, it's a personal choice and should be treated as such.

Just like if you want to go get a gay wedding cake made...if one baker doesn't work for you, head on over to another until you find one that does work for you. You don't go whining to Mommy Government to make them do something against their will. It really is about personal freedom--you may mock that, but it's the foundation that many of us in the US hold dear.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Indigo5
A better analogy would be a gun rights advocate making his case by demanding to board an airplane with a loaded shotgun.

Sure, he might be trustworthy and not a wacko...that one flight might even get to it's destination with no issue.

But the more he flies on crowded airplanes with a loaded shotgun and the more people bumping around that crowded airplane with loaded shotguns...and people are going to start getting accidentally shot and bad things will happen.

Why not just demand people don't carry loaded shotguns onto planes...and if you MUST carry a loaded shotgun, then don't get on the plane.

I'll repeat what I said earlier--I'm not arguing that the hospital doesn't have a right to demand its employees get a vaccination, as long as this was a stipulation of employment when the employee was hired.

Often times employers will change their regulations and inform employees that they can conform to the new regulations or be "Promoted to Valued Customer" as my boss likes to put it. They'll put it in writing and have all employees sign it. Now if nothing was put on paper with your signature I can see fighting it, absolutely.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
Sorry, if you're unvaccinated, I want you nowhere near me or mine in regard to healthcare. You have a choice. So do I.

Right, choose to go to a different hospital or healthcare facility. Your demands are not the responsibility of the individual healthcare worker. I'm not going to decide what I put in my body based on other people's desires and commands.

The incessant demands from other people to tell me what to do with my own health and welfare is tiring very quickly. I agree that people who work in healthcare, if they can, should get vaccinated simply because it goes toward their goal of helping remedy people's ailments instead of creating them. But, regardless, it's a personal choice and should be treated as such.

Just like if you want to go get a gay wedding cake made...if one baker doesn't work for you, head on over to another until you find one that does work for you. You don't go whining to Mommy Government to make them do something against their will. It really is about personal freedom--you may mock that, but it's the foundation that many of us in the US hold dear.

I see your argument of choosing another healthcare facility, except what if it's a rural clinic, the only one for miles?

Or what if, god forbid, I'm incapacitated and UNABLE to choose which facility I go to? The baker analogy is flawed for that reason alone, nevermind the fact that nobody has the potential to get sick and DIE because someone refuses to bake a cake for a gay wedding. You said:

I agree that people who work in healthcare, if they can, should get vaccinated simply because it goes toward their goal of helping remedy people's ailments instead of creating them. But, regardless, it's a personal choice and should be treated as such.

Make whatever you choices you want. But when it comes to healthcare; doctors, nurses, anyone with contact with patients should be vaccinated, end of story. Any hospital that doesn't have this as a mandatory policy is putting people at risk. Is it a small risk? Probably. But it's a risk that can be mitigated with a simple jab. If it is absolutely impossible for you to be vaccinated in any way... Well, maybe healthcare isn't the right career path for you. I'm sorry.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: bullcat

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
If you work in a medical profession, and it's part of your conditions of employment, then it is required. That simple.

If you had a problem with vaccines of any kind, you have no business working in the medical field, as vaccinations are (in the vast majority of cases) a REQUIREMENT to remain employed in the field.

Nothing a simple check mark on a form cant solve.

Yup, and when the OP gets the flu and transmits it to an immune-compromised patient and that patient dies, I'm sure a checkmark on some form will make everything better, right?

Can you then please explain to me how people who ARE vaccinated, are still COUGHING and SPLUTTERING in public even on receiving the vaccine in time?

Nobody has EVER yet to explain that one, apart from the usual it's a different strain, so why inject people with the WRONG one? Surely that's malpractice and ballistically screams, its a GUESS, they don't really KNOW what they are doing. Just injecting people with stuff that does not work.


I rarely get the flu, if at all, even with people standing coughing and spluttering around me, I eat mushrooms and other vegetables and healthy food.

Make the health care workers, wear mouth masks, just as they do in Japan when they get the flu.

Healthcare workers shouldn't be coughing and spluttering over patients, and should be SMART enough to STAY AT HOME if they do get it.

What else will you sell out for? That's a legitimate question.

a reply to: bullcat

I agree. The American public in GENERAL should be wearing masks when they're sick. The Japanese do it, and honestly I was impressed. Now when I get sick, you can bet I'm donning a mask. It's just good manners here in Japan. And you know what? It actually kinda works. But I guarantee you as soon as one person in power suggests it, people will start crying about "Government Overreach" and "My Freedoms are being eroded!" even if it was only a suggestion.

Regarding the rest of your post, scientists make assessments of the flu, try to track which strain is the most common for a particular season, and vaccinate against it. Is it always right? Nope. Just like this year, it's only proven to be about 50% effective. But you know what? I'll take a solution that even gives a 50% success rate over a 0% success rate.


a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

I don't understand how vaccinating healthcare workers to protect at-risk patients is selling out. Please explain.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: bullcat

I agree. The American public in GENERAL should be wearing masks when they're sick. The Japanese do it, and honestly I was impressed. Now when I get sick, you can bet I'm donning a mask. It's just good manners here in Japan. And you know what? It actually kinda works. But I guarantee you as soon as one person in power suggests it, people will start crying about "Government Overreach" and "My Freedoms are being eroded!" even if it was only a suggestion.

Regarding the rest of your post, scientists make assessments of the flu, try to track which strain is the most common for a particular season, and vaccinate against it. Is it always right? Nope. Just like this year, it's only proven to be about 50% effective. But you know what? I'll take a solution that even gives a 50% success rate over a 0% success rate.


a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

I don't understand how vaccinating healthcare workers to protect at-risk patients is selling out. Please explain.

If you don't want to vaccinate and you do it anyway, you sold out. Get it?

I only had the flu once in 20 years. I think I'm doing great without the vaccines. No one on earth is making me get it either. I'll go to jail first.

a reply to: Prezbo369

You entered this thread claiming to have a working method for those wishing to avoid compulsory vaccinations that you were going to share, and claimed you worked in healthcare as your qualification to do so.....you cannot now worm yourself out from under the rock you put yourself under and expect to smell like roses.

I can't change your perspective, but hoped in a desperate attempt to lighten the conversation I would set a few things straight. I did happen to get out of a mandatory flu shot and I'm the only one in the entire building who knows I did.

What you perceive as the real threat, one person who takes great care of their health, is largely overshadowed by those who do provide direct hands on care to our residents. You will never negate 100% of the risk, especially when we have so many visitors coming and going. You were correct in saying that everyone does not have the resources or opportunity to do what I do, but that doesn't put me on some sort of pedestal.

I did say "I promise" in my original post to divulge my secret and will do so if I choose. It's called freedom of choice, unlike what many of our resident aren't allowed to exercise. They get pumped with canned processed foods and medication, which to me is more like a prolonged death sentence than "living".

If came down with the flu or cold, I have the choice to remain home until it resides. Many who I work with do not. So who's the bad guy here? From your standpoint, I'll just be creating an army of invalids, spreading disease and killing people with compromised immune systems.

If I decide to make the thread, It will be posted and I will not respond. If anyone wants to PM me, I will tell them. It might keep the pitchforks and torches to a minimum. The secret is more of an exploit and may not work in all situations though I don't see why it wouldn't.

originally posted by: eisegesis
a reply to: Prezbo369

You entered this thread claiming to have a working method for those wishing to avoid compulsory vaccinations that you were going to share, and claimed you worked in healthcare as your qualification to do so.....you cannot now worm yourself out from under the rock you put yourself under and expect to smell like roses.

I can't change your perspective, but hoped in a desperate attempt to lighten the conversation I would set a few things straight. I did happen to get out of a mandatory flu shot and I'm the only one in the entire building who knows I did.

What you perceive as the real threat, one person who takes great care of their health, is largely overshadowed by those who do provide direct hands on care to our residents. You will never negate 100% of the risk, especially when we have so many visitors coming and going. You were correct in saying that everyone does not have the resources or opportunity to do what I do, but that doesn't put me on some sort of pedestal.

I did say "I promise" in my original post to divulge my secret and will do so if I choose. It's called freedom of choice, unlike what many of our resident aren't allowed to exorcise. They get pumped with canned processed foods and medication, which to me is more like a prolonged death sentence than "living".

If came down with the flu or cold, I have the choice to remain home until it resides. Many who I work with do not. So who's the bad guy here? From your standpoint, I'll just be creating an army of invalids, spreading disease and killing people with compromised immune systems.

If I decide to make the thread, It will be posted and I will not respond. If anyone wants to PM me, I will tell them. It might keep the pitchforks and torches to a minimum. The secret is more of an exploit and may not work in all situations though I don't see why it wouldn't.

The right thing to do is stay home while you are sick. People who don't are selfish and don't respect others. That's my final answer Alex.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: Indigo5
A better analogy would be a gun rights advocate making his case by demanding to board an airplane with a loaded shotgun.

Sure, he might be trustworthy and not a wacko...that one flight might even get to it's destination with no issue.

But the more he flies on crowded airplanes with a loaded shotgun and the more people bumping around that crowded airplane with loaded shotguns...and people are going to start getting accidentally shot and bad things will happen.

Why not just demand people don't carry loaded shotguns onto planes...and if you MUST carry a loaded shotgun, then don't get on the plane.

Let's break this gem of an analogy down, since you claim mine is terrible.

A: A loaded shotgun is not created by nature.

Yes..the flu is created by nature..as is Cancer, Earthquakes, Tsunami's and an endless list of other things that it would seem prudent to avoid being killed by?

B: Our bodies are not born with a natural ability to protect itself from a direct shotgun blast to the chest.

We are not born with a "natural ability" to fight the flu either. We are born with an immune system that learns to target foreign invaders such as the flu.

There is nothing "innate" about the flu virus. It is a foreign, simple, biological organism that is continually adapting in an effort to kill us.

During the 1918 Flu Pandemic many people got sick in the morning and died by nightfall.

•Approximately 20% to 40% of the worldwide population became ill
•An estimated 50 million people died
•Nearly 675,000 people died in the United States

* Now you can make a personal choice centered on the probability that your body will repel the Flu Virus and be stronger for it, but you can not demand your employer allow you to be in contact with large numbers of people with vulnerable immune systems while you take that personal gamble.

That can't be hard to understand?

C: You assume that just because people bump into someone with a loaded shotgun, that "people are going to start getting accidentally shot and bad things will happen."

If this is where you suggest arming everyone crammed into long distance flights with fully loaded shotguns is a good and safe idea, then this is where I give up any hope of rational discussion

a reply to: Swing80s

Almost hate to say it - but if you are in the industry I think you are, you can claim religion, or you need to find a waiver.

I have family in the medical industry, and they have never taken the flu shot - The hospital allows them to sign a waiver, but I believe that they must be checked out by a doctor and proven to be healthy.

In my case, the IT-industry doesn't force us to get any shots, and lately (to my utter annoyance), people have been coming into work hacking and coughing all around me. If you are in IT, there's no reason you cannot stay home and work from home.

Personally I don't take the shot, because according to said people in the industry, how they determine what variant of the flu ends up in the shot is they basically predict the couple strains that may take off, or were showing signs of taking off (this is also why you can still get sick with the flu on the shot - they don't include a cure-all).

Having said that, I have had close calls a couple years ago with the flu - I had a fever that was running so hot that I started to black out (heat stroke was a piece of cake compared to this), and was so dizzy I couldn't even get out of the bed to phone someone. Now, I'm obviously still here, but those 4-5 hours during the high point of the fever I'd guess at a 50/50 with death.

-fossilera

Find a way to lead her to believe that you have received the shot, if that's possible.