UK General Election - My own dilemma...

originally posted by: Freeborn


The Tories absolutely decimated the whole of the UK's manufacturing base under Thatcher.
Whole industries shut down.....the North East became a manufacturing wasteland.

The Tories let a whole load of dead industries wither away. If the shipbuildars weren't mking ships that people wanted to the right spec at the right place why should others subsidise their lives? Same with coal minersetc, they couldn't make it at the right price without others subsidising them. Thatcher did what was needed, Britain was a basket case prior to her, red leftie strikes bringing the UK to a standstill, bad industries rotten old and uncompetitive.

Thatcher cleansed the UK and set up the country for the future. Never forget that under John Major who rode the wave created by Maggie manufacturing employment went up. Yes that's right emplyment in our factoriues went up, only to be destroyed by the Labour lefties under Tony Blair.

Vote Conservative

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: doobydoll

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: doobydoll
I can't tell the difference between Tory and Labour, and I hate the Tories so I guess that means I also hate Labour.

Libdems can forget it, they let the Tories lead the coalition with hardly so much as a whimper in protest, they were just happy for their only chance to sit at the gov table for 5 years in return for keeping quiet.

I'm just fuming I can't vote for SNP, but if Labour will agree to co-ally with SNP then I will vote Labour (just to hoof the Tory pigs out) and hope SNP are as good as they are sounding, we'll need them to keep blue Labour in check.

If there is to be no Labour-SNP coaliton, then I'm voting Greens.

I don't really want to vote for any of the main 3 parties, they're all criminal and corrupt and will never serve to make life better in UK society. They'll only serve themselves, with our money. Screw them.

What makes you think that the Greens or any other party with a supposedly idealistic agenda would be any better when and if they happen to be in power?

I don't. All I know is I don't want a hateful gov that despises anyone who isn't wealthy and does its utmost to trample average citizens into destitution and despair, and flatly refuses to help any citizen who needs it. Tories have broken every single promise they made in 2010, helped themselves to huge pay rises, destroyed documents relating to expenses claims to avoid investigations and justice, given their rich donors generous tax cuts paid for by withholding poverty-related and other welfare benefits, delayed investigations into corruption and cover-ups over Westminster paedo-ring allegations, cash for access, the list of criminality is obscene. Why would I vote for them?

Maybe you were in a coma whilst all this was being reported, but if not then why do you want a criminal mafia for a government?

Regardless of whether I was or not, much of that originally happened during non-Tory governments, which makes them all the same to time. It is one branch of TPTB helping another of the same out.

The proverbial 'Devil you know' isn't always better, so I'm giving the Greens a chance.

I think we will all come to realise that they, too, are of the same ilk if not worse, judging from the questionable cleanliness of green parties in other parts of Europe.

They MIGHT be, yes. They also might NOT be.

The difference is we know for definite how corrupt, self-serving, and perverted the rest are.

I refuse to give corruption my vote, and I'm sure I'm not the only disgusted citizen who thinks this way.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

I'm not going to say to you what I really think of your post, as I believe in upholding the manners and decorum of this site....plus it would probably get me an insta-ban.....so...

Thatcher was a cow, a stinking, no good arsehole of a cow who destroyed northern industry, the day she died I lept from my chair and cried...tears of happiness and joy, the witch was dead and the workers she killed could finally rest in peace.

Back then labour were the better of the two, unlike modern day Labour who Conservatives in sheeps clothing.

How much blood does IDS and ATOS have on their hands, how many unemployed people who genuinely want to work are now living in poverty, how many people on 0 hour contracts are wondering when their next shift is coming.....

Conservatives, if hell was a real place, it would be Westminster with those tosspots in command....

double post

a reply to: woogleuk

Cannot star this enough, nothing personal to you uforbhunter, just to hear her supporting industry sounds comical coming from the north west as it's such an alien concept.

There's a good documentary on how the stock exchange where the entrepreneurs who made billions come clean on how they did it here: www.youtube.com...


Mods feels free to delete this if it is deemed as personal, it's not deemed at anyone specific but...I can't wrap my head around why anyone would vote tory given their abuse of the sick and disabled. Or maybe it's only from the horror of having to experience it myself that you would not expect this kind of treatment in a third world country, hence the current UN investigation. Are we really that strapped for cash thatdriving them to suicide is deemed a cost effective measure?

a reply to: bastion

We got lucky in a way up here on the north west coast in Workington, although the pits were closing, we still had the steelworks, which was privatised in 1988 (thank you Mrs. Thatchcock), and although a lot of people were laid off it still maintained a significant workforce.

One of the largest employers in the town, it would have been a catastrophe had it closed at the time....although it has now mostly gone.

Henry Bessemer first introduced the Bessemer converter to the world here.....Adolf Hitler even mentioned it, granted he wanted to blow it up as it was one of the biggest steel producers during the war!

My father is a fitter turner and he worked all his life since leaving school / apprenticeship, most at steelworks and British steel, but I'll never forget in the late 80's, he wept because he had been laid off and was struggling to find work to support us (that's actually just brought a lump to my throat remembering that). I still got a Nintendo NES for Christmas regardless, and that shows how good a man he is.....had I been older and not 8, I wouldn't have asked for anything had I realised the situation.

He's happy working at what is left of the steelworks now though (now Tata steel).

So yeah....I have a good reason to hate them (Tories) and to hate her (may she Rot In Pieces).

Shame southerners never got to appreciate the true evilness of that woman.

a reply to: woogleuk

Fully agreed, the same happened to my dad in manufacturing and it is a raw feeling to this day. Living off jam sandwiches was the norm around here, corned beef if you were lucky as most kids in school had had both parents laid off (and yup he was hero enough to barely spend a penny on himself so me and my sis could have a christmas). There were good reasons we held yearly collections for a street party when she died for nearly 20 years, one of the few people I feel no shame in saying 'the world is a better place now you're dead, but you should have been a wank' about. The strain it took on my family and families of everyone I knew is too brutal to be forgotten so my hatred for her is down to my core being.

Though I guess if you didn't live in the north or through it, the whole thing may seem far fetched until you were a victim of it.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The Tories let a whole load of dead industries wither away.

I wonder, in what piece of Tory propaganda did you read that?
Did you actually live and try to work under Thatcher?
Did you actually experience the aftermath of her policies?

There were certainly major issues in many areas of UK manufacturing, not least large numbers of lower and middle management, incompetent management, serial under-investment, corruption etc.

If the shipbuildars weren't mking ships that people wanted to the right spec at the right place why should others subsidise their lives?

British heavy engineering was almost universally recognised as the vest in the world.
The problem was that UK ship building and heavy engineering in general was severely undercut by the far eastern market - South Korea etc - who basically were paying their employees the proverbial bowl of rice a day whilst UK tradesmen expected a wage that befitted their skill and excellence.
Rather than protect UK manufacturing The Tories simply abandoned it.

I worked in a yard on the Tees around 88 - 90.
One of the contracts we worked on was the Gyda platform for BP Norway.
Whilst conducting extensive onshore radiographic testing I got talking to a senior BP Norway executive.
I asked him why they had placed the order in 'our' yard - he explained that in the immediate aftermath of the Piper Alpha tragedy that had occurred in July 88 safety was viewed as paramount and that as 'everyone knew British engineering was by far the best in the world' it was decided that assured quality workmanship should take precedence over cost.

The Gyda platform is still in operation today.

There is no shipbuilding or heavy engineering of note on the Tees today despite the local expertise.

I only mention this to counteract your insinuation that we in the UK were crap at producing and manufacturing quality products - the reality was the exact opposite.
Unfortunately we have lost the majority of those skills when they shut the yards down, consigned whole communities to the dole and in reality brought about the advent of the Benefit culture those self-same Tories constantly complain about!

Same with coal minersetc, they couldn't make it at the right price without others subsidising them.

Probably the biggest misconceptions ever and a perfect example of how government control of the media can control the populace.

Again, yes, there were many problems in the mining industry including those I mentioned above along with outdated working practices etc.

Thatcher used as justification for her persecution of the Miners and the decimation of that industry here in the UK her refusal to subsidise the coal industry - (there would have no need for any subsidisation if they'd been manafed efficiently and effectively).
She claimed she could buy coal far cheaper from both Germany and Poland.
What she failed to mention - ever - was that the German coal industry was subsidised by the German government far greater than the UK's was and of course communist Poland's coal industry was 100% subsidised.

How on earth could the UK coal industry ever compete against such competition?
But surely you see the hypocrisy and double standards?

Thatcher allegedly despised the communist system and everything to do with the Warsaw Pact country's etc.
Yet she never hesitated to exploit it and use it to destroy a whole industry here in the UK and subsequently destroy communities.

She attacked the coal industry simply to show she had a bigger pair of balls than her male counterparts.

It has been proven beyond doubt that she was complicit in the active placement of police agent provocateurs amidst the striking miners in order to stir up trouble and incite violence.
This violence was then used to condition public opinion and demonise the striking miners.

Thatcher did what was needed, Britain was a basket case prior to her,....

It was a damn sight better place than it is now!

......red leftie strikes bringing the UK to a standstill,

Yip, definitely needed addressing - but smashing eggs with a hammer is an under statement.

....bad industries rotten old and uncompetitive.

Mainly due to very bad mis-management and serial under-investment.

Thatcher cleansed the UK and set up the country for the future.

We are still paying the price for many of Thatcher's policies.
And she changed the very fabric of UK society - as a nation 'we' are far less compassionate and far more self-obsessed than 'we' ever were.

Never forget that under John Major who rode the wave created by Maggie manufacturing employment went up.

And living standards went down.....and have continued to do so.

Yes that's right emplyment in our factoriues went up,

Are you absolutely sure of that?

..... only to be destroyed by the Labour lefties under Tony Blair.

Do you honestly believe that the Labour Party under Blair was 'leftist'?

Like most people on here, I have absolutely nothing but loathing for Blair - but you just continue playing the party game and getting led around by your nose - they are all a complete shower of the brown stuff.
But I have particular disgust for Thatcher and what did to this once great nation.

We would all like our manufacturing industries to be world beaters like they were once upon a time, but those days are gone Freeborn, they are in the past. Many heavy industries were not competitive. I agree that the competition was often unfair, the commies set their currencies to flood export markets and bring in needed western currencies. But those industries were still uncompetitive. Or they produced things that people didn't want. We came up with the Austin Allegro, the germans the VW golf. We came up up with the Ustin Princess, the Germans the BM 2002. Bad design had alot to do with our industries failing. Many industries too were created in the days of Empire when we had a given market for our goods. once the Empire broke away the demand for for our textiles and engineering sky dived.

In many ways I find all this talk of the Tories helping our 80's industries survive hard to bear. Freeborn I work in the ceramics industry, during the 80's we had no issues whatsoever during the Thatcher time, literally Stoke couldn't make enough pots, the pot banks were booming and reeling it out. Exporting too all over the world. Then we hit the very late 90's and things started to fall apart, especially in the earthenware sector. China was the new kind on the block, dead cheap imports also from Eastern European states meant pot bank after pot bank went bust 1,000 workers at a time.

Nobody came to the rescue Freeborn, no Labour knight in shining armour. The workers were often on 11k a year and the jobs are often filthy, all you ever get on TV is flippin farmers moaning about the price of milk while driving around in new range rovers, expecting help for their plight. Miners of old on inflated wages expecting state subsidies to keep the gravy train rolling the same. Nobody ever came to our help during the turn of the millenium, why should the 80's have been any different?

Today we do have some good things going on. The survivors are doing ok. New start ups too have grown into successful companies. We are exporting our wares all over the world. But Freeborn nobody helped us in Westminster, the successes are based on good products at competitve prices and durability/design. Not governmental intervention bleeding the average man of his pay to subsidise failing companies. Nobody helped ceramics Freeborn. It survives off its own back


a reply to: Freeborn

'competitive'. as numerous industries have shown us. is moving manufacture to the poorest place in the world and paying the most minimal wage so they can eat just enough to work.

We had the most highly skilled workers in the world then maggie sacked them as they were 'too expensive' then used their unskilled replacements as justification to reduce wages further and further and further.

Balls to that,I have decency, self respect and enough education to see where that leads. Any party fighting against that gets my vote

a reply to: bastion

Why do you think our economy is booming, or apparently so compared to most western countries?

It's the redistribution of global cheap labour to compete with the likes of China.

The workforce get ridiculously low wages, creating greater profits for businesses. New businesses are created because the economy is performing so well, in turn creating more taxes from the businesses and their low paid workforce.

What we are seeing under Liblabcon is simply government policies to create a stronger economy based on the same principles that saw and is overseeing the rise of the Chinese economy et al.

I was forewarned of this by some relatives that got out of this country before it's inevitable demise.

Britain to stay competitive has to entice business. They do this through EU open border policy. It's not rocket science and as we can all see it's working for the economy, but is it working for the likes of you or me?

Open your eyes and you'll see that some people are realising, that there's more to life than money...or should I say the economy(not ours)...

originally posted by: bastion
'competitive'. as numerous industries have shown us. is moving manufacture to the poorest place in the world and paying the most minimal wage so they can eat just enough to work.

As those countries rise like China, India, Korea, etc they then gain a middle class for us to export to. Companies like Bentley, Triumph, Rolls (aero engines) are doing very nicley in these new markets where the VAST MAJORITY of humanity lives. You can't subsidise industries when they are failing, look what happened with all the tariffs in the 1930's, it doesn't work and indeed leads to world wars.

Remember we only became an industrial power by taking the trade from India and China centuries ago, things go this way and that way but there will always be opportunities with these billions of new middle class to export to

originally posted by: bastion
'competitive'. as numerous industries have shown us. is moving manufacture to the poorest place in the world and paying the most minimal wage so they can eat just enough to work.

Any one countries economy cannot be fairly compared to that of

another's.

In countries, such as India there is actually a bigger divide between

the rich and the poor than there is in any western economy.

The wages in the East cannot be compared with that of those in the

West ... In most instances what we call

"the most minimal wage so they can eat just enough to work"

is manner from heaven to them for with out it they would be *begging*

(no basic job seekers allowance for them!)


What we call *starvation* wages is an improvement for them, and their

lifestyle. They haven't yet got used to the consumerism that we

in the West are accustomed to.

If comparisons are to be made at least make them on a like for like basis.

a reply to: DAZ21

That's the point I'm trying to make (albeit in a very sleep deprived confused state). Her shift from Cartesian (worker focused) economics to Milton Freidman (business profit focused) changed the entire economy on it's head by robbing from the poorest to serve the bank balances of the richest in a desperate race to the bottom. That form of greedy number worshiping economics should never have been allowed as all it did was create mass unemployment and welfare dependency.

Privatisation and 'streamlining' did nothing to help workers, it just granted companies the freedom to become parasitic leeches in developing nations which were now at the mercy of and people take it as gospel for some strange reason that we should be demanding lower wages so we can get jobs, instead of boycotting the company into offering carrot instead of stick.

originally posted by: eletheia


If comparisons are to be made at least make them on a like for like basis.

Hard to phrase this on the internet without it sounding like an attack but I'm genuinely interested as to why you think they should be made like for like? Comparing like for like may be more fair and balanced but does not change the fact that the economic shift of power to banks and multi-national companies means they will always up sticks and relocate to the cheapest labour market if doing so makes more money than would be lost relocating.

If anything, in my personal opinion, comparing like for like lets business off the hook - see the banks effectively holding the government hostage since 2008 over banking reforms by constantly threatenning to move to Hong Kong if UK authorities prosecute anyone for the financial collapse or put a cap on bonuses.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

Remember we only became an industrial power by taking the trade from India and China centuries ago, things go this way and that way but there will always be opportunities with these billions of new middle class to export to

The problem is by gutting manufacture there's far less to export overseas. Wheras it used to be the main industry, now nearly 70% of jobs are virtual IT positions instead of creating physical goods. Our current generation is far less skilled than our fathers in manufacturing, our days of exporting will come to an end soon unless there's a major change in training etc...

a reply to: bastion

Exactly, the governments of western societies may flaunt our big economies, but it only smoothes over the cracks and doesn't tell the whole story.

The 1% against the 99% tells us that much.

Eletheia says we cannot compare economies from two different countries, well I say there's no difference. I'd say the divide between rich and poor is just as wide.

Actually, in places like India we are seeing that gap decrease as they slowy build a fairer system, while if you look at the likes of the UK or US, we're heading back in the wrong direction.

When this process is fully complete, China and India will be the new consumer nations and we in the west will be the manufacturing bases of the world because we will have the advantage of cheap labour.

originally posted by: DAZ21
Eletheia says we cannot compare economies from two different countries, well I say there's no difference. I'd say the divide between rich and poor is just as wide.

I wouldn't exactly call the EU a success story trying to blend the various

Nations monetary systems. Its never going to work for the weaker nations ...

but hey! as long as France and Germany are OK who cares??

Actually, in places like India we are seeing that gap decrease as they slowy build a fairer system, while if you look at the likes of the UK or US, we're heading back in the wrong direction.

Have you ever even been to India?

They have three classes The *RICH* and the *POOR* with a huge

differential between them, and an underclass.

Reply to DAZ211

They are quite happy with their *starvation* wages ... because without

them they wouldn't be eating!! They have no benefit safety net.

originally posted by: DAZ21
a reply to: bastion


When this process is fully complete, China and India will be the new consumer nations and we in the west will be the manufacturing bases of the world because we will have the advantage of cheap labour.

They are already masive and I mean massive consumer nations, a billion plus people each, with a growing middle class that has aspirations to be western and buywestern things. From Scotch whiskey to Mercedes Benz and Jags and Landies they are sucking in our exports. What an opportunity

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Jaguar landrover aren't British anymore, they are India owned by Tata motors. We lost our last car manufacturer MG Rover over a decade ago.

originally posted by: DAZ21
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Jaguar landrover aren't British anymore, they are India owned by Tata motors. We lost our last car manufacturer MG Rover over a decade ago.

Who cares who owns the company? They are as British as Fish and Chips, they make great cars and they make them here, they keep alive a large engineering supply chain and they p;rovide tens of thousands of people with jobs, indirectly you are looking at hundreds of thousands. JLR is a British success story Thanks India Look at that new taxi cab plant in Coventry. Going to employ 1,000 workers. Money coming in for investment from Chinese this time Geely, the new Chinese owner stating how proud he is to invest in British workers

That is so enlightening to see when our own people are not bothered in investing in our own auto industry. To all you Indian and Chinese investors in British manufacturing................... Thank you