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a reply to: Greathouse Well, in certain circumstances you can discriminate. But, as Olaru said, when your business enters the public domain, you have to accept the unwritten social contract that exists and is founded upon certain ideals..
originally posted by: Greathouse
a reply to: olaru12
Yes I am a business owner am I am quite familiar with the regulations. To tell you the truth I agree with almost all of them. But I still think a man should be able to decide who he wants to do business with and that it should not be the governments decision. I have no problems I would follow everyone of the regulations on my own. It's just that I don't think the government has the right to tell me to. Can you get that through your thick head?
Or do the three of you somehow think you smell blood in the water where there isn't any?
I've seen Most people on this site complain regularly about government regulations and how Americans are losing their rights. Apparently you only want the rights lost that you agree with.
Which goes back to my original statement. Once you forfeit any right it's easier for the government to take them the next time.
Society does and will regulate ourselves in due time we do not need the government stepping in to tell us how it's done.
originally posted by: Domo1
So question.
Let's say that someone wants a KKK cake. Should businesses be forced to make it even though they fundamentally disagree?
originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
originally posted by: Domo1
So question.
Let's say that someone wants a KKK cake. Should businesses be forced to make it even though they fundamentally disagree?
How many times does this question have to be asked and answered for people to understand? If a business offers KKK cakes, then yes, they have to offer it to everyone. If they don't make KKK cakes, then no, a business shouldn't be forced to make something they don't ALREADY make for the general public!
This issue isn't about forcing a business to make a PRODUCT. It's about refusing to sell their products to certain PEOPLE.
In NONE of the legal cases, has a business been sued for refusing to make something that they don't already offer to the public. So, please, stop asking the same question.
originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: tothetenthpower
There are freedom of religion laws in this country, a person cannot in any way shape or form be discriminated against for following the dictates of their chosen religion.
These laws protect all religious persons, whether they be Muslims who need special work considerations or Christians.
In this country you cannot by law force a person to violate any tenant of their religion against their will, nor can you imprison them or sue them for refusing to violate the tenants of said religion. What tenants people break willingly is between them and God and considered a sin in nearly every religion, but forcing someone to break those tenants against their will and having legal ramifications for following the dictates of one's religion is illegal in this country according to constitutional law.
Those who are trying to change that and remove the legal protections given to all religious persuasions in this country are wrong, and so indiana enacted a law to protect those religious rights of people, wording it outside of religious context.
As gay marriage has come to the forefront, (which by the way it was Christians who helped me understand that gay people should have the same rights as others under the law, which includes tax breaks should they desire a state endorsed marriage) yet other problems have arisen..
In Christianity you are to follow the laws of the country in which you live to the best of your ability, UNLESS OR UNTIL which time those laws violate what are considered God's laws for them, in which case God's law trumps man's and when faced with that you see Christians facing death willingly, imprisonment willingly, all over the world.
Now, God's law says nothing about dealing with non-believers in a general way.. having non-believers who have their own ways for employee's, co-workers, customers in a general way such as dining out ect - all these things are good things...
but when religion mashes up with that, such as a Baptist minister who cannot marry (under God) two men, for instance without a direct violation of God's law for him... then you have a serious problem. You have then to go back to the constitution and call for freedom of religion and all such laws.. as that Baptist minister has the same rights to practice his religion as does the Muslim or the Hindu in this country.
Now, that is not saying that the two men cannot or should not be allowed under the law to be married, there are justices of the peace and even some so-called christian ministers willing to perform such marriages, but that is to say you cannot force this man to violate his religion against his will.
There are some grey areas involved in marriage, can a religious cake maker say no to someone wanting a cake because he feels it violates his religion to encourage what is to him, sin? Should someone be able to be sued out of business for following his or her religion? Not according to the constitution, but it seems people want to change that constitution to only protect the non-religious rather than every party...
and as such, when the laws meant to protect people are not protecting them appropriately, then new laws need to be enacted which will.
I for one never want to see the day in this country that someone can be sued or go to jail simply for following the tenants and dictates of their religion - no matter what that religion or non religion is. At the same time I don't want to see any actual discrimination, but religious persecution (ie: jailing or suing someone for following their religion) is actual discrimination too..and there you have an impasse, a place where neither parties rights should be able to trump the other...
so you have a place for new industry, or industry for the less religious.. there are new business opportunities to be had which many will take advantage of, and some few doors close... but that is okay too.. life is about change, and learning to work with one another societally.
originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06
It is not a matter of it being a different kind of cake, it is a matter of encouraging sin. My father didn't drink alcohol as it was against his religious beliefs. He also did not work in a field which sold or served alcohol to others. Had his feild changed and began selling alcohol to others, he would have refused because it would have been, according to the faith he held, encouraging others to sin or helping others sin against God, which in his view and in his religion is a sin in and of itself.
In order to avoid selling alcohol to others he would have gone to jail, lost his job and starved to death if need be; his belief was that strong on the matter.
Just as he should have had the right to refuse if faced with that, so should others have the right to refuse to violate their religion in other matters. This is the thought process behind it, its not that its a different product or service, its that it is encouraging something bad according to their own personal belief.
Now, in any religion those "bad things" and the beliefs concerning encouraging "bad things" (sorry don't know what else to call it so its bad things for lack of better words) are going to vary from person to person. My father was stricter in following the tenants of his faith than many many others... but that was his belief and his faith and he was no hypocrite.
so really you will have only a few out of any group who follow the tenants of their faith more strictly, and only a few who this sort of thing will ever even be an issue with. But those few deserve legal protections just as much as gay people deserve legal rights - and no one's right should trump another persons, and there in lies certain impasses where everyone should be afforded their own legal rights.
People are looking to states where gay marriage laws have passed, seeing any legal issues that arise out of it and working on figuring out how to legally protect ALL potential parties - both the religious groups and the secular ones - simply because gay marriage will soon be legal in every state. Lets make sure all people are afforded protections then.
But this is going to mean growing up a little bit, it means that the gay couple needs to say to themselves "You know what, that religious person has rights also, so I will make sure to help them by protecting their rights" and other people in the industry need to step up and say "hey, we are non-religious or a religious person who has no issue with this sort of thing - come do business with us!" You will find yourself swimming in much more of the later than you realize right now..
I'm willing to fight to anyone's rights, but I do feel that those same people should be just as willing to fight for my rights too... respect is a two way street not a one way street.
and my parents had friends and company anyway... imagine.. people respecting another human beings right to practice what they believe.
yet where marriage is concerned, which for well over 2000 years has been primarily a religious institution, you will find some religions clashing with secular laws..
If I was a minister in my faith, I would go to jail before I would personally marry a gay couple... but I do understand that marriage has now because something outside of faith as well and as such the gay couple should be entitled to secular benefits of state marriage.
In this country, we have religious freedom. The business has to provide accommodation for the Muslim to practice his faith, under the law, because of religious freedom - for instance.
should everyone who is religious leave the industry in order to accommodate their faith? If so what will the religious do when they want a religious marriage?
Here I think you simply have to allow for the respect of all persons.. and that means respecting the religious as much as respecting the secular..people have the right to reasonable accommodation for the practicing of faith, and in marriage you will see an actual need to say said reasonable accommodations are necessary.
originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06
No, there was never alcohol served or had in my house growing up, no matter who was there or what the occasion was... if someone wanted to drink alcohol they would need to leave in order to do so, and if alcohol was given as a gift it was refused and explained that it was against my fathers faith.
and my parents had friends and company anyway... imagine.. people respecting another human beings right to practice what they believe.
originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: tothetenthpower
yet where marriage is concerned, which for well over 2000 years has been primarily a religious institution, you will find some religions clashing with secular laws..
If I was a minister in my faith, I would go to jail before I would personally marry a gay couple... but I do understand that marriage has now because something outside of faith as well and as such the gay couple should be entitled to secular benefits of state marriage.
In this country, we have religious freedom. The business has to provide accommodation for the Muslim to practice his faith, under the law, because of religious freedom - for instance.
Now you have an area where the secular is clashing with established faith... marriage. Til now, if you were in the wedding industry in any way, you were able to practice your faith without fear of anything happening outside of that faith..
that is changing, although the wedding industry is still mainly religious, you are mixing secular in with it also... therefore rather than changing an entire industry which for centuries has been primarily a religious institution, to a secular one..you should allow for reasonable accommodation.
should everyone who is religious leave the industry in order to accommodate their faith? If so what will the religious do when they want a religious marriage?
Here I think you simply have to allow for the respect of all persons.. and that means respecting the religious as much as respecting the secular..people have the right to reasonable accommodation for the practicing of faith, and in marriage you will see an actual need to say said reasonable accommodations are necessary.
Concerning reasonable accomodation... if a Muslim, for instance, gets a job at Mcdonald's, for instance, they can refuse to handle pork, including cooking it, or serving it to a customer.. a Muslim can and has every single legal right to say no.
Now, if I feel it is against my religion to encourage something that is expressly forbidden in my religion then wherever I work must allow me to say no, and refuse that particular thing..No matter what my religion happens to be, whether it be hindu, Muslim, buddist or Christian ect ect.
In the case of a business that only employs the owner, or only employs two or three people then you will run into times in which reasonable accommodation cannot be had.. ie: there is no one in that particular business who is able according to their religion to step up to the plate and serve the customer..
In those cases it must be allowed for religious freedom and the reasonable accommodation to be "no, we simply cannot take on this contract."