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This Whole Indiana law thing...I'm Irritated.

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posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: tothetenthpower

I am not arguing that gays should not be allowed secular marriage. I agree that upon which time there came to be legal benefit to marriage that it should be then open to all.

Concerning reasonable accomodation... if a Muslim, for instance, gets a job at Mcdonald's, for instance, they can refuse to handle pork, including cooking it, or serving it to a customer.. a Muslim can and has every single legal right to say no.

Now.. because Mcdonald's is a large company and most people in this country aren;t Muslim, there is usually always someone in the business who can step up to the plate and make the pork product and serve it to a customer, and the business, BY LAW, has to accommodate the Muslim in this due to non-discrimination laws and freedom of religion laws..

Now, in the wedding industry you don't have lots of large companies with many or multiple employees. A wedding photography company is usually one photographer, and he is the owner of his own company.. a cake maker might only employ the owner of the business and a couple other people..

Now, if I feel it is against my religion to encourage something that is expressly forbidden in my religion then wherever I work must allow me to say no, and refuse that particular thing..No matter what my religion happens to be, whether it be hindu, Muslim, buddist or Christian ect ect.

In the case of a business that only employs the owner, or only employs two or three people then you will run into times in which reasonable accommodation cannot be had.. ie: there is no one in that particular business who is able according to their religion to step up to the plate and serve the customer..

In those cases it must be allowed for religious freedom and the reasonable accommodation to be "no, we simply cannot take on this contract."




Unfortunately I work in the restraunt industry and have worked with countless Muslims and Jews. I have never seen nor heard that either group is restricted from touching or serving pork. They are not allowed to not serve pork. Every restraunt serves bacon. That would mean there are no Jewish or Muslim chefs/line cooks. No restraunt would hire a kitchen person who couldn't touch pork.......I'm sure (like everything else) there is a case or two of people attempting to play that card, but there is absolutely no norm of Muslims not touching pork... I've worked in restraunts for over 15 years and never even heard of it.



Making a cake for a ceremony is not encouraging that ceremony. Making a cake for a barmitsfa (sure I spelled that horribly :p) is not against Christianity so making a cake for a gay reception isn't either....


In fact making a cake for a competeing religion should be far worse then a gay marriage, but strangely no Christian cares about making a cake for a Jewish ceremony....even tho the killed and rejected there magic baby.




posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

It's not about hating gays. I personally hate no 'group".. certainly not a person for being same sex oriented..(although I reserve judgement and friendships about people based on personalities.. ie: don't want to be around drug addicts, gay or straight.. not trustworthy individuals although even for them I am willing to reserve judgement to the individual)

BUT, homosexuality is expressly forbidden in my religion and it is not my personal practice.. I see it to be wrong from my religious standpoint..

This would not mean I would not be friends with a person who is homosexual, it does not mean I would not work side by side with a homosexual individual.. to me, they are someone of a different belief and a much different outlook on life..

that is not hatred... it just is..


Isn't worshipping another religion actually expressly forbidden? Like as in 3 of the Ten Commandments are about that...yet why isn't there a fight over making a cake for another religions ceremonies? It should be at least as sinful to make a cake for a Muslim, Jewish or buddist ceremony as it is for a gay wedding. Hell homosexuality isn't big enough to crack the Ten Commandments.

Total hypocrisy with what principles you choose to stand on. Which seem to have little or nothing to do with scripture.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:16 AM
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a reply to: Entreri06

actually, among the various religions, Jews have their own people for their ceremonies, Muslims have their own people and Christians their own..

You wont be finding a Muslim going to a christian baker anytime soon .... Jews wont eat food cooked by Christians much either, Christians however will eat food cooked by Jews and Muslims, but the feeling is not reciprocated... at all in some circumstances.


edit on 2-4-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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a reply to: Entreri06

Again, it is about encouraging sin... and the issue must be decided by the individuals involved..

If I had a homosexual freind, I would not ever say hey Joe, you should ask Bob out - he seems interested in you..

I simply could not ever go there, because it is encouraging something that is against my beliefs.. It doesn't mean I don't like both Joe and Bob as individuals, but neither can I encourage something forbidden..

as I said, whether baking a cake for a gay couple is encouragement or wrong in some way is rather a grey area, I do believe that it is up to the affected individuals to pray about it and decide whether or not it is something they can do..

They will be answerable to God for their actions, no matter what those actions turn out to be in the end.. and it is to them, and their right as citizens of this country to decide what actions or inactions to take..

As I said, I have given it some thought, and know for a fact if a gay couple couldn't find a cake maker I would help, up to and including making one for them if need be, no matter what I believed to be right or wrong.. but as people and citizens of this country, we have the right to practice our given faith, and sometimes that might mean saying no to things that are socially acceptable.

No matter the cost.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

actually, among the various religions, Jews have their own people for their ceremonies, Muslims have their own people and Christians their own..

You wont be finding a Muslim going to a christian baker anytime soon .... Jews wont eat food cooked by Christians much either, Christians however will eat food cooked by Jews and Muslims, but the feeling is not reciprocated... at all in some circumstances.



What?!?! I work in the restraunt industry and have for a little over 15 years (shoot me please :p) that is completely untrue.....hell the fine dining joint I work at now has a Christian chef, Jewish su chef and a Muslim line cook and dishwasher.... None have speacial requirements on handling food. They don't EAT pork but all handle it.

The clientele of course is as religiously diverse as America. We have catered to parties for all religions as well. There is no Jews go to a Jewish bakery and Muslims go to Muslim bakeries. Some one sold you a big ole pile of BS.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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a reply to: Entreri06

The Muslim is not a religious one.. guaranteed.. it is against islamic law to both handle through touch, and serve pork products..

Many people don't practice the tenants of their faith.. but it doesn't mean those tenants are not established religious law..



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:35 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

Again, it is about encouraging sin... and the issue must be decided by the individuals involved..

If I had a homosexual freind, I would not ever say hey Joe, you should ask Bob out - he seems interested in you..

I simply could not ever go there, because it is encouraging something that is against my beliefs.. It doesn't mean I don't like both Joe and Bob as individuals, but neither can I encourage something forbidden..

as I said, whether baking a cake for a gay couple is encouragement or wrong in some way is rather a grey area, I do believe that it is up to the affected individuals to pray about it and decide whether or not it is something they can do..

They will be answerable to God for their actions, no matter what those actions turn out to be in the end.. and it is to them, and their right as citizens of this country to decide what actions or inactions to take..

As I said, I have given it some thought, and know for a fact if a gay couple couldn't find a cake maker I would help, up to and including making one for them if need be, no matter what I believed to be right or wrong.. but as people and citizens of this country, we have the right to practice our given faith, and sometimes that might mean saying no to things that are socially acceptable.

No matter the cost.



So if you feed an alcoholic you would be encouraging alcoholism? If you made a cake for a barmitsfa you would be encouraging judism? If a married man and his mistress eat in your restraunt your encouraging adultery?


It's hilarious the way homosexuality is the pinnicle of Christian sin, while all the other sins that the bible put far more stock in are secondary.


So you think we all decide what is our religion, then literally you can do whatever you want. The government sure shouldn't be deciding what we can and can't believe. So literally anything you want to do you could put on your personal beliefs in that case. The government isn't allowed to favor any of the religions.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:38 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

The Muslim is not a religious one.. guaranteed.. it is against islamic law to both handle through touch, and serve pork products..

Many people don't practice the tenants of their faith.. but it doesn't mean those tenants are not established religious law..



Well it's such a rare occurrence that a veteran of restraunts has never even heard of it..... A veteran who loves to argue politics and religion....

So in no way ,shape , form or fashion is that anything resembling the norm.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:42 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

Jesus NEVER forbid homosexuality or any LBGT activity, including eating or baking their wedding cakes. What he DID forbid, however, is DIVORCE and ADULTERY. He never said it would be okay to divorce, as long you're repentant, or to commit adultery as long as you repent everyday you sleep with your husband.

Discriminating against homosexuals for their perceived sexual sins is not supported by any of the teachings of Jesus.
edit on 2-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:46 AM
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a reply to: Entreri06

many people who call themselves Christian are not actually practicing Christians, these are called Christian in name only, same goes for many Muslims, many Jews, many whatever...

does the fact that many people don't follow their religion mean that those who do should or can be discriminated against and get sued, or loose their job, or go to jail simply for being a practicing member of their religion?

That is saying that one form of discrimination is good, so long as its against religious people, and one form is bad, if it is against people in the secular community...

that is wrong thinking.. it should be about allowing for the rights of, and doing your best to accommodate ALL people, not just the group you happen to be in... I should be able to support your group without loosing my rights, and you should be able to support my group without loosing any of your rights..

that is called being adult.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: windword

neither are you a practicing or a believing Christian, so your opinion of my faith matters little... in the Christian community as a whole there is mixed feelings on the issue, and I do know exactly what I personally believe..



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 10:57 AM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

many people who call themselves Christian are not actually practicing Christians, these are called Christian in name only, same goes for many Muslims, many Jews, many whatever...

does the fact that many people don't follow their religion mean that those who do should or can be discriminated against and get sued, or loose their job, or go to jail simply for being a practicing member of their religion?

That is saying that one form of discrimination is good, so long as its against religious people, and one form is bad, if it is against people in the secular community...

that is wrong thinking.. it should be about allowing for the rights of, and doing your best to accommodate ALL people, not just the group you happen to be in... I should be able to support your group without loosing my rights, and you should be able to support my group without loosing any of your rights..

that is called being adult.


No your equating being expected to make a cake for a customer with different beliefs then you with discremination. While refusing goods and services because of having differing beliefs is literally the definition of discrimination. Just like refusing to let Christians drink from the same water fountain as everyone else Is discrimination. Expecting gays to use there own bakers is discrimination.

Expecting a restraunt who serves the public to serve all the public is not discrimination.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

You shouldn't be so surprised to be judged by others who don't follow your justifications. Jesus promised that you would be judged by the likes of me.


For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.


My opinion matters when it comes to legislating laws that create a protected class of hypocrites, claiming their special flavor of religion, picking and choosing what kind of immorality they sanction and approve of, in order to skirt the law of the land to discriminate against people like me.






edit on 2-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: windword

No, Jesus promised to BE my judge... I am fine with that. He also taught me to take my religion from the bible, not the secular community. I am happy with the way I treat others, and am good to be judged accordingly.. I am not mean to you, I am always kind, I am always accepting of others regardless of how I personally view their actions and am quick to put myself into the shoes of another person and quick to forgive others...

But I do draw the line at having non-Christians attempt to dictate my religion to me...and there is no sin in that - at all.

This is a stupid conversation, and very much off topic...

I believe the topic is the right to practice one's religion, and reasonable accommodation.. not a topic intended to dictate faith, but to find the meeting ground where all parties rights are respected and all people walk away happy..

at least, that is what I hope for in the end.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 11:32 AM
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Since this thread has delved into a criticism of my faith instead of the actual topic.. I will close with a couple thoughts..

I am a baker, actually.. and a cook. It would take me literally 50 dollars worth of supplies plus an inspection and a business license to start a cake businesss and/or a catering business.

I have been asked so many times by literally almost every one who has ever known me to start up my own catering business, because I am great at what I do..

I have always said no.. I wont do that for a living.. because it is what I dearly dearly LOVE to do. The kitchen and creating food is my happy place and my fear has always been that doing it for a living would ruin the joy of it.. so I never did.. just kept it as my happy place is all I did..

but if anything in life ever changed... it would take me next to nothing to start a business, because I already have all the supplies and already do it.. I just do it for fun rather than money.. but if something ever changed a catering business has always been an option for me...and an option that would take little for me to begin..

I am not the only person like that, and if situations changed and a great big market opened up.. you would see people just like me start up new businesses in the existing open holes in communities across America.. and you would see it probably all over the country..

But you wont see much if you want to take away people's rights, because usually when its my rights verses your rights the my (on any side of the issue) wins..

but if you gaining rights means others do not loose their rights, then you will find many many people willing and happy to take up slack where others may have left it off..

but no one is willing to loose their right to religious freedom, in order for someone else to have rights instead..



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 11:44 AM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB




I believe the topic is the right to practice one's religion, and reasonable accommodation.. not a topic intended to dictate faith, but to find the meeting ground where all parties rights are respected and all people walk away happy..


WRONG! This is a RANT and is in the RANT forum, authored by a LGBT non-religious member.



No, Jesus promised to BE my judge...


And yet you're judging others "sexual sins" and being judged by others to be hypocritical, as it's well known that you're yourself living in your own "sexual sin".



But I do draw the line at having non-Christians attempt to dictate my religion to me...and there is no sin in that - at all.


And I draw the line at being subject to someone who believes that I need the approval of their self delusional moral authority to purchase a publicly available service.





edit on 2-4-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

many people who call themselves Christian are not actually practicing Christians, these are called Christian in name only, same goes for many Muslims, many Jews, many whatever...

does the fact that many people don't follow their religion mean that those who do should or can be discriminated against and get sued, or loose their job, or go to jail simply for being a practicing member of their religion?

That is saying that one form of discrimination is good, so long as its against religious people, and one form is bad, if it is against people in the secular community...

that is wrong thinking.. it should be about allowing for the rights of, and doing your best to accommodate ALL people, not just the group you happen to be in... I should be able to support your group without loosing my rights, and you should be able to support my group without loosing any of your rights..

that is called being adult.


Then obviously we should allow slavery again. Since there is the exact same amount of scripture condoning slavery....

You can not use anchient texts as a basis for modern society. It can't be the measuring stick in legal type matters.....



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

I see this is about removing all legal protections in matters of the religious freedom of individuals (regardless of whether or not those individuals own their own business rather than working for a large corporation) when that religious person is harming no one...

that is what it should never have been about... in case you wondered.



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

I see this is about removing all legal protections in matters of the religious freedom of individuals (regardless of whether or not those individuals own their own business rather than working for a large corporation) when that religious person is harming no one...

that is what it should never have been about... in case you wondered.

That is something I am 100% against, and will fight tooth and nail every single step of the way...
edit on 2-4-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 2 2015 @ 02:27 PM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: Entreri06

I see this is about removing all legal protections in matters of the religious freedom of individuals (regardless of whether or not those individuals own their own business rather than working for a large corporation) when that religious person is harming no one...

that is what it should never have been about... in case you wondered.


With holding goods and services is harmful....



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