Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signs controversial 'religious freedom' bill

a reply to: NavyDoc

just wondering but how would a business person know you are military, or gay for that matter unless you were doing something that proclaimed to them that you were like wearing a uniform?

and it's nice that you would be able to just go somewhere that would serve you but not everybody has that priviledge. I've had to walk just about everywhere I went for the first 30 years of my life and well quite frankly I'd be pretty irked to find out that I walked a mile or two for something just to find out that the person had a moral issue with serving me.

and although most people seem to be thinking this is directed solely at gay people well I've got a feeling that it will expand to other classes and if the religious right can find a way to might even exempt them from the civil rights laws.
truthfully I think that if it's is solely aimed at the gays that it's a heck of alot of energy being exerted for what is really more of a non-issue to me since there are a heck of alot more damaging sins in our world.

businesses used to close on sundays along with most of the major holidays. why are they complaining now about having to serve gays or providing insurance that covers birth control while they are demanding that thier employees work on these sacred days??

a reply to: MystikMushroom

There isn't a "war on Christianity", but people *are* getting tired of so-called "Christians" taking the bits and pieces of a religion they belong to, and ditching the rest. You just can't do that and not expect some backlash.

There isn't a war on Christianity, true. But it's no use trying to explain that to people because fear is fear. Sometimes there's just no reasoning with fear. However, seems to me that all of us - Christian, Muslim, Jew or atheist - are faced with a kind of societal crisis when some of the nastier elements of civilization use religion as justification for any of the things they want to do

“This law is not something that provides for discrimination against gays,” he explained. “It is something that prevents discrimination against Christians… This thing is an anti-discrimination bill because it prohibits governmental discrimination against Christians in the state of Indiana.”

You can turn any argument on it's head - and it will still make a certain kind of sense


When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To Justify Racism Instead Of Homophobia

...Bilbo was also a virulent racist. “I call on every red-blooded white man to use any means to keep the n-word away from the polls,” Bilbo proclaimed during his successful reelection campaign in 1946. He was a proud member of the Ku Klux Klan, telling Meet the Press that same year that “[n]o man can leave the Klan. He takes an oath not to do that. Once a Ku Klux, always a Ku Klux.” During a filibuster of an anti-lynching bill, Bilbo claimed that the bill...

...will open the floodgates of hell in the South. Raping, mobbing, lynching, race riots, and crime will be increased a thousandfold; and upon your garments and the garments of those who are responsible for the passage of the measure will be the blood of the raped and outraged daughters of Dixie, as well as the blood of the perpetrators of these crimes that the red-blooded Anglo-Saxon White Southern men will not tolerate.

For Senator Bilbo, however, racism was more that just an ideology, it was a sincerely held religious belief...

Either Jesus is a moral and divine example to live by or he isn't. The entire term "Christian" was to mean "Christ-like" I thought? What about all those WWJD bumper stickers and t-shirts? I'll tell you what Jesus would do -- he'd bake that gay couple a cake.

This is how I've always seen it. I'm not Christian - but I have always understood that to be Christian was to be tolerant, patient, giving and kind

IMO - - - these Right Wing Fundamentalist politicians (and followers) live in a Bubble of their own making.

It kind of reminds me of surrounding yourself with Yes Men.

Reading comments from some religious sites - - - they are absolutely Shocked - - - that anyone would oppose their "Special" right to discriminate because of their religious belief.

They really, really, do not get it.

Sad, really sad

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

I'm not Christian - but I have always understood that to be Christian was to be tolerant, patient, giving and kind

I have been Christian. And while some are as you might expect, they tend to be the few in my experience.

I found most Christians (in my experience) to be very petty, jealous, and competitive (not in a good way).

a reply to: NavyDoc

Nonsense. He makes films. He provides a product. He makes a lot of different films of different types. He would have a moral objection for making a film of a certain type and he has every right to refuse to do so. A person should have the right to not do something he finds abhorrent.

Of course the photographer can make a policy not to do nude photography or any photography of offensive nature. So that will be out for ANYBODY who wants that.

However if he provides photography service for weddings then he will HAVE to provide that to ANYONE regardless of their sexual orientation, race or beliefs.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: NavyDoc

Nonsense. He makes films. He provides a product. He makes a lot of different films of different types. He would have a moral objection for making a film of a certain type and he has every right to refuse to do so. A person should have the right to not do something he finds abhorrent.

Of course the photographer can make a policy not to do nude photography or any photography of offensive nature. So that will be out for ANYBODY who wants that.

However if he provides photography service for weddings then he will HAVE to provide that to ANYONE regardless of their sexual orientation, race or beliefs.

We're back to the film?

There is something called Artistic License. You can suggest ideas to a Cake Maker on how you want your cake decorated, but she does not have to accept your idea. It is her art. You can't tell her how to do her art.

She's still required to provide the cake though.

a reply to: Annee

We're back to the film?

There is something called Artistic License. You can suggest ideas to a Cake Maker on how you want your cake decorated, but she does not have to accept your idea. It is her art. You can't tell her how to do her art.

She's still required to provide the cake though.

Right. I was just replying to his post. The point is that if the photographer offers to do wedding photos, he will still be required to do so regardless of sexual orientation.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: Annee

We're back to the film?

There is something called Artistic License. You can suggest ideas to a Cake Maker on how you want your cake decorated, but she does not have to accept your idea. It is her art. You can't tell her how to do her art.

She's still required to provide the cake though.

Right. I was just replying to his post. The point is that if the photographer offers to do wedding photos, he will still be required to do so regardless of sexual orientation.

Yes. There are limits though. Photog would not be required to film nudity, unless it was agreed upon in the contract.

You can't force a cake maker to write something that is offensive to them.

But, if a same sex couple picks a cake from the catalog - - - baker can't refuse that (in states with law)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
On the other hand - maybe he really is just that stupid :-)

He's not stupid. He has always been looking for ways to oppress gay people... He's known to have deleted constituent's pro-gay marriage comments from his Facebook page so it would look like the people supported his views...

Pence defends deleting of gay marriage comments

He later apologized

His talk and actions are 180 degrees out.

He voted against repealing DADT and has voted many times for an amendment defining marriage as one man, one woman. Source His agenda has been clear for many years.

Voted NO on prohibiting job discrimination based on sexual orientation.
Voted YES on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage.
NO on enforcing against anti-gay hate crimes

Mike Pence on the Issues

a reply to: Annee

Yes. There are limits though. Photog would not be required to film nudity, unless it was agreed upon in the contract.

You can't force a cake maker to write something that is offensive to them.

Right I agree with you. I was correcting his erroneous reply to Benevolent Heretic.

The Dominionists in our government have been planning this kind of thing for a while. I was trying to find out a who's who of this group of anti-american dominionist devils and found this.

According to the Start Debating – Stop Hating website, a number of Republican congresspeople and high ranking officials have signed on to the pledge that they will stand by the Family Research Council, Concerned Women for America, American Family Association and other groups identified as anti-gay hate groups.

They include: U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Members Who Endorse SPLC-Designated Hate Groups:
Speaker-designate John Boehner – (R-OH);
Majority Leader-elect Eric Cantor – (R-VA);
Rep. Michele Bachmann – (R-MN);
Rep. John Carter – Secretary, House Republican Conference (R-TX);
Rep. John Fleming, M.D. – (R-LA);
Rep. Trent Franks – (R-AZ);
Rep. Louie Gohmert – (R-TX);
Rep. Jeb Henserling – (R-TX);
Rep. Jim Jordan – (R-OH);
Rep. Steve King – (R-IA);
Rep. Donald Manzullo – (R-IL);
Rep. Kevin McCarthy – (R-CA);
Rep.-elect Alan Nunnelee – (R-MS);
Rep. Mike Pence – (R-IN);
Rep. Joe Pitts – (R-PA);
Rep. Peter Roskam – (R-IL);
Rep. Steve Scalise – (R-LA);
Rep. Lamar Smith – (R-TX);
Rep. Fred Upton – (R-MI).

More info to be found here.
Over 20 Republican Congress Members and Governors Align with Christian Dominionists and Hard Line Religious Right Activists in Denouncing the Southern Poverty Law Center

So all of this just gets more and more interesting as I dig deeper in to this stinking pile of BS. Might make a great episode of NLBS too now that I think of it. Anyway, here is a short video I found that helps explain a little more detail about what we're looking at and the fact that it's not just some Right Wing Radicals who are doing this but in are Hard Right Religious Fundamentalists who have actively planned to take over the Right Wing and setup a Theocratic system to rule America. It's a few years old but is still very much in line with what is happening now.

Interview with Jay Michaelson about 'Redefining Religious Liberty'

ALL the GOP hopefuls back Pence.

GOP hopefuls back Gov. Pence on Indiana religious freedom law

“This law simply says the government has to have a level of burden to be able to establish that there’s been some kind of discrimination,” the former Florida governor said. “We’re going to need this. This is really an important value for our country … where you can respect and be tolerant of people’s lifestyles, but allow for people of faith to be able to exercise theirs.”

onpolitics.usatoday.com...

Shumer

In the uproar over the recently passed Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), defenders of the bill like Indiana Gov. Pence are trying to hide behind the argument that the law "simply mirrors" the federal RFRA Sen. Ted Kennedy wrote and I introduced as a Congressman in 1993. That may be true only if you're using a Funhouse mirror.

talkingpointsmemo.com...

a reply to: Annee

I have been Christian. And while some are as you might expect, they tend to be the few in my experience.

I was raised in a non-religious home, but as you can imagine some of my family is religious - many of my friends, coworkers, etc...

When I say religious that covers Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists - Rastafarians :-)

I've known many an agnostic/atheist too. Seems to me that we all play out pretty much the same no matter what the group. Some people are tolerant, loving - giving...some people just suck at being people

One thing I know for sure - there is a group in this country calling themselves Christian that are hell-bent on having everything their way. They are working against secularism precisely because secularism won't award them special privileges, they say they are for less government and for supporting our individual right to do whatever the hell we say makes us feel right with God, even if that actually causes other people distress

They want to pretend that the old days are behind us and that now all they're doing is fighting persecution

As I was saying to Mystik, these aren't a people that are Christ-like. They act as if they wrote the Bible and own the copyright - and that the rest of us don't understand Jesus

What a crock

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Yes, as I teach my kids/grandkids - - - "People are their Heart".

Giving yourself a label or belief in God does not make you a good person.

When people group together, say like PTA moms - - - cliques start, etc. etc.

Ya know what I mean?

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis

One thing I know for sure - there is a group in this country calling themselves Christian that are hell-bent on having everything their way. They are working against secularism precisely because secularism won't award them special privileges, they say they are for less government and for supporting our individual right to do whatever the hell we say makes us feel right with God, even if that actually causes other people distress

They want to pretend that the old days are behind us and that now all they're doing is fighting persecution

As I was saying to Mystik, these aren't a people that are Christ-like. They act as if they wrote the Bible and own the copyright - and that the rest of us don't understand Jesus

What a crock

Lets Hi-Lite this part

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

He's not stupid.

No - hes not

So, that means that we're looking at the real deal. You'd think another Governor Wallace wasn't possible in this day and age

Whatever the market will bear I guess. This is what bothers me the most about all of this

Can't wait to see how things go in Arkansas

a reply to: Annee

I so do know what you mean :-)

I'm just enough of a Pollyanna to believe that most people - in their heart - are truly good

Still, I'm just cynical enough to feel that when we get into groups and pick leaders it's nothing but Lord of the Flies - all the way down

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: Annee

I so do know what you mean :-)

I'm just enough of a Pollyanna to believe that most people - in their heart - are truly good

Still, I'm just cynical enough to feel that when we get into groups and pick leaders it's nothing but Lord of the Flies - all the way down

I prefer the Pollyanna too.

As I've posted before my mom had polio and I grew up belonging to a disabled social club. There were all kinds of disabilities, not just polio. There was even a guy who pushed himself around on a board with wheels.

I learned early "People are their Heart".