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Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signs controversial 'religious freedom' bill

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posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:04 PM
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originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: NavyDoc

Saying you're against government coercion laws, then surely with that line of thought you'd be against this law as its also made by the state government?


Of course.

OTOH, who are they coercing?




posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: NavyDoc




Here's my point--I support your right to make your own choices in life and business without government coercion. I do not think that an abhorrent philosophy.


A military man not wanting "government coercion"? Isn't that the military's stock in trade? Good luck with that....



This discussion however is a discourse that needs to be addressed. STATE SPONSORED bigotry with the blessings of the Ultra Conservative Right Wing Christians.
Leading to what?.....a theocracy? no thanks!



So is Military coercion, a branch of the government, ok with you? See your disconnect...? Must take some fancy mental gymnastics to reconcile that question....


The military takes away your right to do anything how? Like I said, I 100% support your freedom to choose what to do in business and in your personal life. It does not matter whether I agree with it or not, you are a free individual and you should be free to make up your own mind.
edit on 31-3-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:07 PM
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originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: marg6043

I agree with your points. What folk who say this is ok and businesses should have the right to discriminate do not understand, is if you live in the "Bible Belt" as a gay person, you'd be ostracised by the whole community. Saying "take your business elsewhere" would mean moving to a state more tolerant.

I spent three months in Georgia US, and was Flabbergasted at the obvious racism I saw. Places like this will become places totally intolerant to everyone who is not a white, rep, Christian. This is the worst case scenario if these kinds of laws are introduced. The U.S. will become divided as it was in the American Revolution when these same US States wanted the right to keep slaves!

Perhaps it's to much sun and its frying their brains??



Try to be a conservative or military in Berkley. Then you will see an entire south's worth of hate and prejudice and discrimination.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:07 PM
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I've noticed that right-wingers seem to have a bigger problem on average than lefties when a listener or audience doesn't just kow-tow to whatever foolishness they're stating as fact.

We want to argue and try to convince someone ... the right is just shocked and in righteous indignation (often coupled with denial) that someone doesn't see "the truth."

YMMV




edit on 12Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:09:25 -050015p122015366 by Gryphon66 because: noted



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:07 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: windword
but we can't just keep writing laws to protect different groups of people. and there will be other groups that will be thought up since it seems that some people just need to hate someone or something and have to express that somehow. and the religions does seem to leave the door open to justify so much!


There are plenty of people who hate me. I guess I need to become a protected class.


hey hey....navydoc, I disagree with you on almost everything, but, I certainly don't hate you.....and where is this coming from?.....



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:12 PM
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originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: windword
but we can't just keep writing laws to protect different groups of people. and there will be other groups that will be thought up since it seems that some people just need to hate someone or something and have to express that somehow. and the religions does seem to leave the door open to justify so much!


There are plenty of people who hate me. I guess I need to become a protected class.


hey hey....navydoc, I disagree with you on almost everything, but, I certainly don't hate you.....and where is this coming from?.....


I'm so persecuted.





Naw, I like you guys.
edit on 31-3-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:13 PM
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originally posted by: jimmyx
Pence and his republican right-wing bigots in the legislature, knew exactly what they were putting in this bill.....they are now just lying their ass off, while trying to cover it at the same time.


After some research, I believe you're right. The people who were invited to the bill's signing reads like a list if who's who in homophobic bigotry, including lobbyists who say homosexuality is a treatable disorder, equate homosexuality to bestiality and adultery, and say pastors could be jailed for not performing gay marriages.

Source Snapshot



Pence signed the bill during a private ceremony in his Statehouse office Thursday morning. He was joined by supportive lawmakers, Franciscan monks and nuns, orthodox Jews, and some of the state's most powerful lobbyists on conservative social issues.
...
Gov. Mike Pence's office wouldn't identify the religious leaders who posed in a photo with him during his private signing of the divisive religious freedom law.


Source

But they're being identified... and it's not pretty...

Yeah, Pence is not only a lying scumbag, he's a homophobic bigot.
edit on 3/31/2015 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:18 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: NavyDoc




Here's my point--I support your right to make your own choices in life and business without government coercion. I do not think that an abhorrent philosophy.


A military man not wanting "government coercion"? Isn't that the military's stock in trade? Good luck with that....



This discussion however is a discourse that needs to be addressed. STATE SPONSORED bigotry with the blessings of the Ultra Conservative Right Wing Christians.
Leading to what?.....a theocracy? no thanks!



So is Military coercion, a branch of the government, ok with you? See your disconnect...? Must take some fancy mental gymnastics to reconcile that question....


The military takes away your right to do anything how?


Perhaps I should have explained myself better....When you are in the military, you are owned by the military lock, stock and barrel and have no choice but to do things the military WAY. Vet. here btw.

You don't view the military life style as direct government coercion in a persons personal decision making? WTF!

The Navy must have changed! Or perhaps you better get with the program!!!

If you don't want government in your affairs...might I suggest the military might not be the best place for you!!!
edit on 31-3-2015 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:19 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

i like ya navy doc! i agree with you frequently, but on this topic, i think the point is a matter of common sense. if a gay person asks your business to do something that would make you uncomfortable, you can bow out gracefully, there's no need to read them the riot act about their biology. it's pretty simple really: you just say you have other obligations (which would be true). otherwise, what does it matter if a gay person buys something your business provides? it's like the face palm of all face palms.
edit on 31-3-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

Please explain how one has a right to the service of another.

Certainly, where taxpayer funded and government entities are concerned, every citizen has the same rights to the services their government provides. However, how does that extend to a private citizen? Do I have the right to your labor? Your time? Why?


If I am offering up my services up for sale then you certainly have every right to purchase them just like anyone else. There are clearly no stipulations on who can and can't purchase them so there is no reason why I should deny service to you. If I had a reason that would be different but discrimination isn't a valid reason for it.

Within the context of this thread that is what this is about. I do not support discrimination like this, for anyone. I realize that you do, I understand your position on this, I just don't agree with it.

It is not my first choice to get government involved either but sometimes it's unavoidable. Legislation is being passed that legally allows a special interest group to openly discriminate against another group of people based on arbitrary and unspecific bias toward those they believe to fit that group.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I think BH, that many politicians surround themselves with like-minded people, and these people start pushing, ever so slowly, their own true agenda, and said politician doesn't step back from it, and see if it's good for all the people he represents instead of just a few....I once heard that every politician needs that one close consultant that has the balls and gravitas, to tell him he's full of crap.


edit on 31-3-2015 by jimmyx because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:25 PM
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a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Of course he doesn't want to identify them, because he knows as well as we do that this would make it even more clear what the motivations were behind this bill.

I will be pretty shocked if this man is still in his position in a months time. The people should be calling for him to be removed from office immediately. He has cost the state potentially billions of $'s in lost revenue, he's clearly lied to the people in claiming what he's been claiming, he's embarrassed and humiliated the state, and he obviously wants to inflict his personal beliefs on the population even when those beliefs directly attack his own citizens and their rights.

At the very least he's failed to do his job in passing an inadequate bill which embarrassed the state and cost them money and reputation, at the worst he's directly facilitated in an attack against potentially hundreds of thousands of his own citizens.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:33 PM
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originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: olaru12
a reply to: NavyDoc




Here's my point--I support your right to make your own choices in life and business without government coercion. I do not think that an abhorrent philosophy.


A military man not wanting "government coercion"? Isn't that the military's stock in trade? Good luck with that....



This discussion however is a discourse that needs to be addressed. STATE SPONSORED bigotry with the blessings of the Ultra Conservative Right Wing Christians.
Leading to what?.....a theocracy? no thanks!



So is Military coercion, a branch of the government, ok with you? See your disconnect...? Must take some fancy mental gymnastics to reconcile that question....


The military takes away your right to do anything how?


Perhaps I should have explained myself better....When you are in the military, you are owned by the military lock, stock and barrel and have no choice but to do things the military WAY. Vet. here btw.

You don't view the military life style as direct government coercion in a persons personal decision making? WTF!

The Navy must have changed! Or perhaps you better get with the program!!!


Oh, I see. The difference is that I signed a contract when I signed up and agreed to follow the rules and regulations therein. I could have chosen not to. I could leave at any time after my contractual obligation was up, and believe it or not, part of that contractual obligation also secured many rights and privileges for me. Unlike common belief, one is not an automaton nor is one devoid of rights in the service. Contrast that with someone who is not taking a government paycheck nor has signed a contract with the government. I would hope one could see the difference.
edit on 31-3-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:34 PM
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originally posted by: undo
a reply to: NavyDoc

i like ya navy doc! i agree with you frequently, but on this topic, i think the point is a matter of common sense. if a gay person asks your business to do something that would make you uncomfortable, you can bow out gracefully, there's no need to read them the riot act about their biology. it's pretty simple really: you just say you have other obligations (which would be true). otherwise, what does it matter if a gay person buys something your business provides? it's like the face palm of all face palms.


Well that is, of course, a simple solution.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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I don't understand how this has anything to do with "religious freedom"?

Where in the Bible does it spell out who you can and can't do business with?

Jesus regularly dined with sinners, and went as far as to wash their feet. If Jesus owned a bakery or some public business, I'm fairly certain "all are welcome" would be hung on his storefront.

There isn't a "war on Christianity", but people *are* getting tired of so-called "Christians" taking the bits and pieces of a religion they belong to, and ditching the rest. You just can't do that and not expect some backlash.

Either Jesus is a moral and divine example to live by or he isn't. The entire term "Christian" was to mean "Christ-like" I thought? What about all those WWJD bumper stickers and t-shirts? I'll tell you what Jesus would do -- he'd bake that gay couple a cake.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: NavyDoc

Please explain how one has a right to the service of another.

Certainly, where taxpayer funded and government entities are concerned, every citizen has the same rights to the services their government provides. However, how does that extend to a private citizen? Do I have the right to your labor? Your time? Why?




Within the context of this thread that is what this is about. I do not support discrimination like this, for anyone. I realize that you do, I understand your position on this, I just don't agree with it.

.


But that's not true. Wanting people to be free to make their own decisions, good or bad, is not an endorsement of those decisions.

I disagree with discrimination. It is not polite--I would not want to be treated that way so why would I treat someone else that way? It is lot logical--there is no man in the sky to be pissed at you for selling a cake. It is bad business sense--WTF turn away paying customers, especially in this economy.

However, one can disagree with something without demanding that the state punish what one disagrees with. That thought process, IMHO, is a dangerous one and leads down a slippery slope. The hardest part of tolerance, one that most people forget, is tolerating things you don't like.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:40 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc
Oh, I see. The difference is that I signed a contract when I signed up and agreed to follow the rules and regulations therein.


What difference? When a person gets a business license, they also agree to follow the laws of the state, including non-discrimination laws...

Source



Business licenses are permits issued by government agencies that allow individuals or companies to conduct business within the government's geographical jurisdiction. It is the authorization to start a business issued by the local government.[1] A single jurisdiction often requires multiple licenses that are issued by multiple government departments and agencies. Business licenses vary between countries, states, and local municipalities. There are often many licenses, registrations and certifications required to conduct a business in a single location.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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a reply to: MystikMushroom

Indeed.



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:47 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

And what about the single gay man living in a town within the bible belt where all the businesses refuse to serve him, as is their right by law?

By your logic it would be ok to discriminate against this individual as its the businesses rights to do so. This is no different to businesses back in the 1950's "only serve whites".

You keep saying you're against government involvement, but that is exactly what this Bill is, State Goverment legalising discrimination!





edit on 31.3.2015 by flammadraco because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 31 2015 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: flammadraco
a reply to: NavyDoc

And what about the single gay man living in a town within the bible belt where all the businesses refuse to serve him, as it their right by law?

By your logic it would be ok to discriminate against this individual as its the businesses rights to do so. This is no different to businesses back in the 1950's "only serve whites".

You keep saying you're against government involvement, but that is exactly what this Bill is, State Goverment legalising discrimination!






But is it? That's the claim, but I don't see anything in the law that makes anyone do anything.



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