Who wants to argue creation?

originally posted by: spy66

I am refering to genesis because it describes the Big Bang almoste to the last detail. But With a different wording.
The moste importen thing about genesis is that genesis describes the state of the void/space prior to the creation of the firmament (singularity). Something science dont. Because it cant describe it. because it has not observed it.

Please please quote the verses of the Bible that describe the big bang to the last detail (even if it's different wording) and the verses that describe the state of the void/space prior to the creation of the firmament.... because I have read Genesis and all I see it's a lot of incorrect science.

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Randy, you said:

I bet I know of more what you call, contradictions then you Agartha. Just be sure to know, you could never change what I know on a personal level. I've been sold since finding my own way at ten yrs old. And never have I found enough to convince of anything else. It's what I have felt in my core that has convinced me. Nothing read nothing said but physically felt. And nothing has ever brought me to that feeling other than My Sweet Lord.

Well, first of all let's not assume you know more than me, you may have researched the topic as much as I did but just because you believe in it doesn't mean you know more.

Second, I am not trying to convince you of anything, I was talking about my personal experience: once I saw the errors and contradictions in a book allegedly inspired by God, I realized it was all the fabrication of men to gain power.

originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: 321Go
Wow. 23 pages of people saying:

Prove it.
No, you prove.
No, YOU prove it.
I have all the proof in this book here.
No, I have all the proof in this book here...

Both side are inherently unprovable. Creation will never be proven because God will never make an appearance. Evolution will only be proven when it's evidenced on another planet – which will be impossible to get to.

The massive weight of evidence arguing for the Theory of Evolution trumps Creation in almost every respect, largely because there is absolutely zero evidence for creation, but creationists will never accept it. Likewise, science will never accept the Bible's Genesis as evidence of anything either.

So many arguments, vitriol and animosity towards people we have never met. Let's just agree to disagree.

Talk about stating a contradiction. (Both sides are inherently unprovable) But than you go on to say that the theory of evolution trumps creation......Jesse's who are you?

Evolution is just as easly related to creation. Have you read Genesis Chapter 1.....?

There is no contradiction is what I've written. Some evidence is not necessarily red-handed proof. Consider a jury, for example, certain types of evidence will convince some of them, but not all, yet not all of that type of evidence is referred to as 'proof'.

Both sides are unprovable at the moment, and will probably remain so for quite some time. Genesis will never be proven as it's just simple man's explanation to account for us being here – we are inquisitive beings after all and need explanations for everything to be satisfied.

At some point, science will prove life started on this planet as they have predicted. Biogenesis and subsequent evolution has a lot of evidence behind it already, but to be considered scientific 'proof' (in a literal sense) it has to be reproducible. Biogenesis in particular will be difficult to prove, unless we find it happening elsewhere or can recreate it.

Personally, I'm totally in favour of science over any religion's explanation. A lot of Christians claim rights over the creation myth, but in reality you're near the end of a pretty long chain of claims – all of which are false.

In answer to your question, yes I have read Genesis and the rest of the New and Old Testaments. I must admit I skipped a couple Gospels as they seemed very similar to the previous two, but otherwise I read them in their entirety over the course of about four years. I'd like to read other religious texts too.

The point I was trying to make is that we are aimlessly shouting over two sides of a very large fence. Nothing at all will come of this, except sore throats.

a reply to: Agartha

I will.

Verse 1.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. This explaines what God is going to create.


Verse 2.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
This verse describes how the void was like prior to the creation of the firmeament. Because God have not created the heaven or the Earth at this point. There was nothing but darkness upon the deep.... is the description of the void prior to the creation of the fimament.

Verse 3 is related to the Big Bang. This is what Moses must have seen:

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Keep in mind that Moses cant see the firmament at this point. He can only observe the light which prevents him from observing the firmament. The firmament is emitting the light Moses observes.

Verse 4 describes how God separated The light from darkness. God separated light from dakness by forming the singularity which emitted light in the prosses.

Verse 6. is related to verse 2. In verse 2 there were only darkness upon the face of deep. In verse 6 we now have the firmament in the midst of the waters. This is what Big Bang would Call the singularity.....Our expanding universe.

In verse 8. God Calls the firament for heaven. Within science the singularity would be heaven. At this point Earth is not formed yet. Because God first created the heaven.....the firmament.


Do you see how it fits in????

Where ever you are - there will be life. That is why it says 'lift a rock and I am there'.
Talking about creation as if it were in the past is ridiculous - each moment is Being created but it never stays - notice how there is only ever this that is happening presently.
That which knows the ever changing present light is God.
God is all seeing and ever present.

Can you see That which is seeing?
That which is seeing is God. All appears within the seeing.
The truth is hidden is plain sight - the plain act of seeing.

a reply to: spy66

Sorry, Spy, but your verses don't match what I just copied from the Bible:

DAY ONE
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

DAY TWO
And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

DAY THREE
And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

DAY FOUR
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
www.esvbible.org...

In here I see that God had already created Earth. Then there was a light (big bang). Then he separated the waters and created dry land. Then he crated the sun and the moon... I don't get how there was evening and morning on the first day if he created the sun and the moon on day 4 (and repeats evening and morning). Earth being there before the light actually contradicts the big bang. And there is no other mentioned of creating Earth, as it was created at the beginning.

Your explanation has moved things about, they are not in the same order as in the Bible.

a reply to: Agartha

I use King James:

Chapter 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

How you read genesis is how you have been though and told to view what you read in genesis Agartha. That is something you have to think about.

a reply to: Agartha
Before God separated the whole into bits by claiming 'this is dark (call it Night) and this is light (name it Day) etc.' there was nothing, no division - no things at all.
The 'big bang' is nothing more than the 'one without a second' seaming becoming more than one.

There still is nothing but the illusion is that you are an individual thing living in a world of other individual things.

a reply to: spy66

We used the same...... so I don't get your explanation still. The Earth was already formed on the first day... and there was water??

a reply to: 321Go

I agree With some of this, but not all.

At some point, science will prove life started on this planet as they have predicted

This is also mentioned in genesis Chapter 1. God said let Earth bring forth.....

Genesis explaines that it is Earth that brings forth...... Not God.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: spy66

We used the same...... so I don't get your explanation still. The Earth was already formed on the first day... and there was water??

No, Earth was not created the first day. The firmament was.

Where does genesis state that Earth was formed on the first day???

Non of there verses from 1 to 5 mentions Earth as being created. In verse 2 Earth is described as being without form and void. That means Earth dosent exist. It dosent have a form/shape and dosent consist of any void/compressed energies to make it solid.

originally posted by: spy66


No, Earth was not created the first day. The firmament was.

Where does genesis state that Earth was formed on the first day???

Non of there verses from 1 to 5 mentions Earth as being created. In verse 2 Earth is described as being without form and void. That means Earth dosent exist. It dosent have a form/shape and dosent consist of any void/compressed energies to make it solid.

Verse 1 implies that firmament and Earth were created more or less at the same time.. which is not what the Big bang theory says.

I don't see any other verse that says: the Earth was created.

Can you remember your creation day? Has there ever been a 'time' when you weren't? Will there ever be a 'time' when you are not?
To be or not to be??

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: 321Go

I agree With some of this, but not all.

At some point, science will prove life started on this planet as they have predicted

This is also mentioned in genesis Chapter 1. God said let Earth bring forth.....

Genesis explaines that it is Earth that brings forth...... Not God.

Those with religious faith have become very good at editing and altering semantics over time. Studying religious teaching throughout history, there was once a time when the words of the bible were taken as literal fact, and it would still be this way if it were not for the advancement of science. The necessity to explain, or to be precise, to 'fit' the words of religious texts into modern thinking has created much mistrust, and has probably dissuaded as many people away from religion as science has. Equally, those who are convinced that there is hidden meaning and secret codes within religious text also fail on logic, as the iconography that these texts were originally written in are simply not as complex as the language we use today, and so cannot be used to create such codes accurately.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: redtic

Yeah, probability dictates it... well, here.. Mr Randy meet Dr Tyson...

We've met! Very unattractive when arrogance replaces humility. And
the only thing to exceed how smart he thinks he is? Is how smart he
wants you to think he is. I shutter to think of him as the true human
being. Further more he's a total ass for even try'n to convince people
he knows it all. And in 2000 yrs how many people will smile because
of him.

arrogance - making undue claims in an overbearing manner

Dr Tyson isn't arrogant, but he certainly is confident. He's confident because he has science backing him - he's echoing what science has taught him. He's confident because he has thousands of hours of scientific process to stand on when he makes those claims. And I guarantee you that he will be the first person to tell you that he doesn't "know it all". That's what science is about - constantly discovering. Science is about the unknown. But, you know who's arrogant - the preacher that gets up and tells everyone how they should act all based on some book of stories that has no basis in reality. That's arrogance.

a reply to: 321Go

Religion is mans perspective of Gods Word....nothing else.

I dont support a religion. I think religion have it all wrong. I support what i know.

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: spy66


No, Earth was not created the first day. The firmament was.

Where does genesis state that Earth was formed on the first day???

Non of there verses from 1 to 5 mentions Earth as being created. In verse 2 Earth is described as being without form and void. That means Earth dosent exist. It dosent have a form/shape and dosent consist of any void/compressed energies to make it solid.

Verse 1 implies that firmament and Earth were created more or less at the same time.. which is not what the Big bang theory says.

I don't see any other verse that says: the Earth was created.

Where does Genesis imply that the firmament and Earth were created at the same time in verse 1?

Verse one imply that first the heaven was created and than Earth.

Verse 1. reads:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. One before the other.



But God did not create Earth. Where does genesis mention that God created Earth? Nowhere as you state.

Earth came out of the firmament. Earth also came ut of the singularity just like the BB theory imply.

originally posted by: spy66

Where does Genesis imply that the firmament and Earth were created at the same time in verse 1?

Verse one imply that first the heaven was created and than Earth.

Verse 1. reads:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. One before the other.

But God did not create Earth. Where does genesis mention that God created Earth? Nowhere as you state.

Earth came out of the firmament. Earth also came ut of the singularity just like the BB theory imply.

Verse 1 says : "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty..."

It doesn't say it created the firmament first, it says both were created. This is confirmed by 'The earth was formless and empty' because it still didn't have light, plants, day/night etc. But it was already there.

Then, after the Earth was there formless and empty, light was created (the supposed big bang).

I don't see anywhere 'Heaven was created first and then Earth'. It says both.

It say 'Earth was'.... WAS because it had already been created.

a reply to: redtic

Thank you sir, I have been making the same points. but trying to reason with these guys is like administering medicine to the dead (to quote a phrase from Thomas Paine)

a reply to: randyvs

Life exist on this planet so to make the connection that life must exists on other planets out of the billions out there is a logical assumption. Evidence being "Lifeforms existing here", "planets existing elsewhere". There is no evidence supporting any GOD or creator. We can easily assume that it was Santa Claus that created everything because that theory is just built on beliefs.