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Who wants to argue creation?

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posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 11:22 AM
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originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: redtic

Thank you sir, I have been making the same points. but trying to reason with these guys is like administering medicine to the dead (to quote a phrase from Thomas Paine)



No you would have more luck with that!




posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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a reply to: spy66

"In the beginning God created the earth" so who created the other billions of planets and stars that are older than the earth since earth is the beginning point (according to the bible)...lol.

These are two totally contradictory stories of the creation of the earth, and of living creatures.
Hence one is false; the notion of the inspired truth of God in one or the other of them must be
abandoned as impossible. Of course we know that both are mere fables, equally false, and wholly
disproved by every fact of the sciences of geology and anthropology and astronomy, which prove
that the earth and sun and stars were countless ages in formation, and that human and animal life has existed for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, far beyond the lately discovered Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon men, who outdated the biblical Adam by tens of thousands ofyears. But we will stick to our Bible "facts," and not appeal to the discoveries of science, nor to the common elements of modern human knowledge, to gainsay divine inspiration of the Bible. The book and its truth must be tried by itself. It is also evident on the face of these two conflicting accounts that two different writers, "E" and "J," wrote them, and not Moses; and also that the third man, "P," who patched them together, did it in a very apprentice-like manner, and without any inspiration or critical knack at all.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: spy66

"Verse 1. reads:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. One before the other..."

Seriously "and" means one before the other not togther.


"and
ənd,(ə)n,and/
conjunction
conjunction: and

1.
used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly.
"bread and butter"
synonyms: together with, along with, with, as well as, in addition to, including, also, too; More
besides, furthermore, moreover;" : - Text



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 11:43 AM
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originally posted by: spy66

originally posted by: TzarChasm
this whole thread looks bad. and yet those in favor of creationism will insist on starting more arguments, moving more goalposts, mining more quotes and misrepresenting more science. there are a few dozen threads (at least) just like this one to prove my point if anyone is interested in doing the digging, easily accessible via the ats search engine. have fun.


Does this mean you give up or what????

I was hoping you had some solid facts to argue Your case......but i Guess you dont have any


Logic is a bi#ch isent it


Aw come on dude. How are you going to say that when you have presented a grand total of ZERO citations or sources to back up any of your faulty claims. If you can't back up your viewpoint, you are essentially preaching here. I prefer tangible facts that indicate things about reality, not random guesswork and telling people they are wrong with no justification for it. You may want to do a little research about logic, because without objective evidence, non existence is the only logical choice. Inventing ideas about voids, making assumptions about what is finite and infinite or what was there before the big bang is not logic. It is guesswork based on assumptions.


I am refering to genesis because it describes the Big Bang almoste to the last detail. But With a different wording.
The moste importen thing about genesis is that genesis describes the state of the void/space prior to the creation of the firmament (singularity). Something science dont. Because it cant describe it. because it has not observed it.


Genesis absolutely DOES NOT describe big bang to the last detail. What exactly have you read about the science behind the big bang? Obviously nothing. Let me guess, you think "let there be light" = big bang to the last detail. LMAO. Funny, creationism can't accurately describe what was there before the big bang either. The difference is, you take your guess as truth, while science admits that we haven't figured it out yet.


Our universe is expanding faster than the speed of light.

False. It is not expanding faster than the speed of light. Are you just making this up as you go along?

edit on 26-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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a reply to: Barcs

One cant use science to argue creation. Because science is to Limited. I Guess uyou are to Limited to grasp that.

Science is Limited to a obervable universe that is 13,8 billion years old. and 91 billion light years in diameter.

Do you think science can explaine creation.....hell no. So stop dilling around With you know how.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 12:38 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Barcs

One cant use science to argue creation. Because science is to Limited. I Guess uyou are to Limited to grasp that.


You say this, yet you are the one arguing above that the big bang is described in Genesis to the last detail. Yes, science is sooooo limited that it can't prove things that have no evidence to support them. That isn't a limit of science. It's basic logic 101. Science is growing. Maybe one day it will discover god, but until it does I have every right to be skeptical and to call out your false claims when you make them.


Science is Limited to a obervable universe that is 13,8 billion years old. and 91 billion light years in diameter.


Science is limited to what has evidence and what can be verified. One day it could very well expand to other dimensions or learn if anything exists outside of our universe. Until it does, you are guessing.

Nothing explains creation. Only guesses. Anybody can guess about anything. You need evidence if you want it to hold water. Just saying. If you make false claims about the universe like, "the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light", I will call you out on it, because it is dishonest. Sorry I'm not going to allow that on my watch.
edit on 26-6-2015 by Barcs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 12:38 PM
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originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: spy66

"Verse 1. reads:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. One before the other..."

Seriously "and" means one before the other not togther.


"and
ənd,(ə)n,and/
conjunction
conjunction: and

1.
used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly.
"bread and butter"
synonyms: together with, along with, with, as well as, in addition to, including, also, too; More
besides, furthermore, moreover;" : - Text



Seriously read genesis for god sake.

God does not create Earth at the same time as the firmament. The light is day 1. The firmament is day 2. Earth is not mentioned in any of these verses.

Do you understand what you read?



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 12:43 PM
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originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: Barcs

One cant use science to argue creation. Because science is to Limited. I Guess uyou are to Limited to grasp that.


You say this, yet you are the one arguing above that the big bang is described in Genesis to the last detail. Yes, science is sooooo limited that it can't prove things that have no evidence to support them. That isn't a limit of science. It's basic logic 101. Science is growing. Maybe one day it will discover god, but until it does I have every right to be skeptical and to call out your false claims when you make them.


Science is Limited to a obervable universe that is 13,8 billion years old. and 91 billion light years in diameter.


Science is limited to what has evidence and what can be verified. One day it could very well expand to other dimensions or learn if anything exists outside of our universe. Until it does, you are guessing.

Nothing explains creation. Only guesses. Anybody can guess about anything. You need evidence if you want it to hold water. Just saying. If you make false claims about the universe like, "the universe is expanding faster than the speed of light", I will call you out on it, because it is dishonest to make false statements and attribute them to science.



I also said one more important thing about genesis that science dont mention. And that is the void prior to the creation of the firmament.

If you dont agree that genesis is comparable With the BB is Your problem not mine. I dont need Your approval for this.


If science one day will figure this out is good. But until then i Guess we are on Our own.

PS. I have never said the science dont have evidence that support their study. I am saying we cant use science to argue creation.
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: spy66

But a 2000 plus year old Bible written by superstitious old men can? These persons were not even aware of the other continents and culture on earth much less grasping the true concept of evolutions (they thought the earth was flat/square for crying out loud).



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: spy66

Seriously read genesis for god sake.

God does not create Earth at the same time as the firmament. The light is day 1. The firmament is day 2. Earth is not mentioned in any of these verses.

Do you understand what you read?



Yes, it does say Earth was created on the first day. Read my last post to you.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 01:05 PM
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a reply to: spy66

Are you aware that there are two (yes 2) creations story in Genesis, each contradicting the other. So which creation story you say is correct, Genesis 1 or Genesis 2??



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: spy66
I also said one more important thing about genesis that science dont mention. And that is the void prior to the creation of the firmament.

If you dont agree that genesis is comparable With the BB is Your problem not mine. I dont need Your approval for this.


That's certainly not my problem as it is a logical position that doesn't rely on assumptions. Yours does. You are contradicting yourself by saying that science can't argue creation and then saying that Genesis describes the big bang (a scientific theory) to the last detail. I don't care if you want to believe in god, just stop making claims that are flat out wrong. If you want to guess about how it all works, I'm totally fine with that, but do it without the lies, and stop attributing the position to logic. Guesswork is never considered logical.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 02:06 PM
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originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: spy66
I also said one more important thing about genesis that science dont mention. And that is the void prior to the creation of the firmament.

If you dont agree that genesis is comparable With the BB is Your problem not mine. I dont need Your approval for this.


That's certainly not my problem as it is a logical position that doesn't rely on assumptions. Yours does. You are contradicting yourself by saying that science can't argue creation and then saying that Genesis describes the big bang (a scientific theory) to the last detail. I don't care if you want to believe in god, just stop making claims that are flat out wrong. If you want to guess about how it all works, I'm totally fine with that, but do it without the lies, and stop attributing the position to logic. Guesswork is never considered logical.


I am not making claims that are flat out wrong. If i did you would have called me out With you own facts. But you have not. Because you dont know of any.
What ever you find I will tell you....you are wrong. Because you dont understand sceience Your just talk.

Prove that i am wrong With your Scientific knowledge please......
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: spy66

Are you aware that there are two (yes 2) creations story in Genesis, each contradicting the other. So which creation story you say is correct, Genesis 1 or Genesis 2??



I have been refering to genesis Chapter 1. not genesis Chapter 2.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: spy66

So which Genesis is correct and which one was written by Moses or inspired men. Are you saying Genesis is fact and Genesis 2 is fiction and how did you reach this conclusion???

Warning: Most Creationist's faith is not actually very strong - learning that the Bible has serious internal contradictions may lead to their ill-being - use this knowledge with caution!



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 02:59 PM
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originally posted by: toktaylor
a reply to: spy66

So which Genesis is correct and which one was written by Moses or inspired men. Are you saying Genesis is fact and Genesis 2 is fiction and how did you reach this conclusion???

Warning: Most Creationist's faith is not actually very strong - learning that the Bible has serious internal contradictions may lead to their ill-being - use this knowledge with caution!


Genesis two is written in a much different way compared to genesis Chapter 1. Personaly i think Genesis Chapter two ruins it for religion. I will say it again:.... religion is a mans perspective of Gods Word. I dont think Chapter two is based on Gods Word.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: spy66

Anyway back on track...you creationist is arguing on the basis of God being the First Cause.
By predicating a First Cause ... you creationist removes the mystery a stage further back.
This First Cause you assume to be a cause that was not caused and this First Cause
is God. Such a belief is a logical absurdity, and is an example of the ancient custom
of creating a mystery to explain a mystery. If everything must have a cause, then
the First Cause must be caused and therefore: Who made God? To say that this
First Cause always existed is to deny the basic assumption of this “Theory.”

Moreover, if it is reasonable to assume a First Cause as having always existed, why
is it unreasonable to assume that the materials of the universe always existed? To
explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by
the unknown is a form of theological lunacy.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: toktaylor

I dont know what other creationists state and i dont speak on their behalf. I speak for myself.

I dont know how you reason Logic. But i dont reason like you do at all.

Personally i dont see anything wrong With Genesis describing the void of Space prior to the forming of the firmament.
The proplem you face With that is that it is not backed up by science. Well it never will be. Because science is Limited to the speed of light.....and a observable universe that is 13,8 billion years old and 91 billion light years in diameter. Science even state that Our universe is expanding faster than light. And it also admitt on wiki that science might never know whats Beyond the observable universe.


If you reason that God was caused (also created) you dont have much understanding or ability to reason Logic.

It is actually mute to argue this With you.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: spy66


Creationist does not explain creation, logics/science does. Consider the notion that the universe has always existed and always will exist. Some creationist finds this difficult to accept, and they argue that god makes the universe easier to understand. Yet, while the creationist complains of difficulty accepting the notion of an eternally existing universe, consider his alternative. We must conceive of a supernatural, unknowable, eternally existing being, and, moreover, we must conceive of this being creating matter from the void of non-existence.

It is strange that those who object to the idea of eternal matter display little difficulty in accepting the creation of something out of nothing. To demand a cause for all of existence is to demand a contradiction: if the cause exists, it is part of existence; if it does not exist, it cannot
be a cause. ... Causality presupposes existence, existence does not presuppose causality. ... Existence—not “God”—is the First Cause….logic 101.



posted on Jun, 26 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: spy66

Where does Genesis imply that the firmament and Earth were created at the same time in verse 1?

Verse one imply that first the heaven was created and than Earth.

Verse 1. reads:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. One before the other.

But God did not create Earth. Where does genesis mention that God created Earth? Nowhere as you state.

Earth came out of the firmament. Earth also came ut of the singularity just like the BB theory imply.


Verse 1 says : "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty..."

It doesn't say it created the firmament first, it says both were created. This is confirmed by 'The earth was formless and empty' because it still didn't have light, plants, day/night etc. But it was already there.

Then, after the Earth was there formless and empty, light was created (the supposed big bang).

I don't see anywhere 'Heaven was created first and then Earth'. It says both.

It say 'Earth was'.... WAS because it had already been created.


No.

Verse one state: In the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth.

How can Earth exist if this is what God is going to create?

In verse 7. God made the firmament. In verse 8 God state that the firmament is heaven.
How can the firmament/heaven exist prior to verse 2?

If the firmament dont exist neither does Earth. Because Genesis is about the creation of heaven and Earth.

How Earth is created is mentioned after verse 8. And Earth is related to the firmament also called heaven. Because out of the firmament comes Earth.
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)




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