Robust statistics on new scientific tests are dating Shroud of Turin on the time of Christ!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: randyvs

He didn't just "say so", he created an experiment, tested it, and published his results.

Where's your proof of that?

a reply to: randyvs

Oh I wasn't even going to touch the Resurrection bit, just the life of Jesus in general.

I've read the texts extensively over my life time, been a member of different denominations, more times than I can count.

It just doesn't jive with me anymore. To each their own. I did drag this a bit off topic with my comments, so I apologize for that.

~Tenth

a reply to: randyvs

Same guy twice?

Like minds, and all.

FACT: The Shroud of Turin CAN be reproduced.

a reply to: windword

" Luigi Garlaschelli,

FACT! Because windword says so!
This is like arguing with two walls.
And the argument is OVO.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

And I'm cool with that Tenth.

a reply to: The angel of light

Ummm... I didn't read your whole post, but that first part supposedly debunking his relating the fires to the inaccurate carbon dating fails miserably.

He was pointing out that CARBON 14 deposits from the soot in the fire would alter the amount of accumulated carbon 14, you only pointed out that the people claiming forgery claim that the section tested was not a replaced cotton, so you fail miserably there.

I would try reading before debunking if I were you...

Jaden

a reply to: lonesomerimbaud

ACtually this would speak against a forgery not FOR it. The forgers would have been well versed in biblical verses and would've paid attention to what you are attempting to point out.

Jaden

originally posted by: randyvs

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: randyvs

He didn't just "say so", he created an experiment, tested it, and published his results.

Where's your proof of that?

Because there is a side by side comparison between the "fake" and the original. You are just trying to be obtuse here.

Seriously, answer my question. Why do you cling so desperately to the Shroud being real? Being proved fake doesn't discredit your Jesus story. It just proves that this is a stupid forgery made to fool religious people. Why do you let yourself be one of those fools? Especially in this day and age where we can do all these tests to show it is a fake.

a reply to: windword

Dear winword,

There are certainly authors of popular books, that look like cheap sensationalist Da vinci Code literature, that have dared to suggest that is a "medieval photography", but if that might be the case there are really challenging questions to answer

why there are no other photographs of that same period?

why the "discovery of Photography at that time didn't remain in our civilization and became Lost?

Now, it is completely certified that Leonardo Da vinci was born a century after the first documented appearance of the cloth, so supporters of this irresponsible hypothesis are even wrong into select a person that could have the opportunity to do the forgery.

The true about the hypothesis that Davinci origin of the shroud itself is disgusting, a clear racist anti-Latin culture plot created not only to discredit the Roman Catholic Church, but also trying to reduce to the level of a dishonest scammer the most important Italian Scientist and Artist of all times, a devoted wise man that showed solid ethical values all his life.

Now, what is really intriguing is the image of Christ is that it has characteristics that normal photography can't exhibit, Here a link that refer to those amazing aspects of this object:

shroud3d.com...

NO DIRECTIONALITY. In a photograph one can observe a directionality, which means that you can see from which direction the light came that caused the shadows and light areas.The image on the Shroud does not show this characteristic and it seems that the image was formed straight up- and down, which is called “COLLIMATED”. There is also an absence of brushstrokes.

NO OUTLINES. The image does not show any outlines and fades away in the surrounding Shroud. Artists normally use outlines when drawing an image of a person. In a photograph the outlines are also clearly visible.

In the shroud shows not only the external anatomy of the body, but details that correspond to the internal structure, like bones or nerves, in other words look more like a X ray plate than a photography.



While studying the image on the ENRIE photographs, Prof Alan Whanger observed that in the face the sinuses were visible and also part of the teeth. In the image of the hands, the metacarpalia are visible like on an X-Ray photograph. It seems that part of the “energy” that caused the image had long wavelength X-Ray properties.

This is one of the qualities of the cloth that definitively suggest probable paranormal activity on its creation, under the action of some kind of mysterious radiation.

SUPERFICIALITY. The image is present only on the top two or three fibers of the threads. These fibers are hollow and the lumen is called medulla and shows no discoloration, and the individual fibers are all about the same color (monochromatic). It is important to note that these individual fibers of the threads are 10 to 20 times thinner than a human hair (14-8 micrometer for every fiber = 0.25-0.3 mm). Every yarn is composed of 70-120 linen fibers each 0.25-0.3 mm. According to Kevin Moran, on the sides of the fibers the image is like cut with a knife, visible with precision microscopy.

Thanks for your comment,


The Angel of Lightness

Good thread op. But I just wonder, although science and all that is fine, what would Jesus say about all this idolatry over a burial cloth?
a reply to: The angel of light

a reply to: The angel of light

why there are no other photographs of that same period?

Because alchemists kept their secret formulas secret.

why the "discovery of Photography at that time didn't remain in our civilization and became Lost?

Church suppression of alchemic formulas as forbidden magic, unless used by them to create "miracles".

NO DIRECTIONALITY. In a photograph one can observe a directionality, which means that you can see from which direction the light came that caused the shadows and light areas.The image on the Shroud does not show this characteristic and it seems that the image was formed straight up- and down, which is called “COLLIMATED”. There is also an absence of brushstrokes.

When I was in 7th grade, we did a science/art project in which we made ink drawings and using sunlight and household products, we transfered our ink drawings to cloth, leaves and paper, in the negative. It was a long time ago, so please don't ask me for the ingredients, I don't remember. But, I know that this argument, above, doesn't take into account that image could have been a drawing photographically transferred to an old cloth.

In high School, we learned how to make circuit board tracks using copper plates, lemon juice and sunlight. Just saying.......

a reply to: Tangerine

OMG, you are so transparent here. You use every type of fallacy to discredit the op without addressing the science he is presenting.

You're pathetic.

Jaden

a reply to: Masterjaden

Dear lonesomerimbaud , Masterjaden

There is not really any contradiction at all in that the shroud is only one piece of cloth, since it would be the bigger one described in the Gospels found by St John and St Peter when they entered in the empty tomb.

The smaller one is already identified and found since centuries ago, it is the Holy Sudarium that remains in the Cathedral of Oviedo, and that has been in possession of Kings of that country for many centuries, been used in exhibition, to bless a lot of official ceremonies, like royal weddings.

www.frtommylane.com...

About the authenticity of the Sudarium, the church's and civil archives converge into that it corresponds to one of those two clothes described in the Gospels to have found by St Peter and St John in the empty tomb, the small one that covered the head of Christ.

According to the account of the bishop Pelagius (Pelayo), the Sudarium left Jerusalem in the Holy Ark (or chest) in the year AD 614 under the name of Sudarium Domini, the Sudarium of the Lord. It arrived in 616 AD to Cartagena Spain, from which it is moved in the 718 AD to Toledo and then finally to Oviedo in 1075 AD.

Pls read

en.wikipedia.org...

Now, although the official dating of the two objects, the Sudarium and the Shrould, if we believe in the carbon dating of 1988, would be more than 7 centuries apart just only in the time they have in Europe, the correlation in details on both is impressive, it is clear they belong to the same tomb.

www.mysticsofthechurch.com...

www.shroud.com...

Thanks for your comments,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you even realize that you seem to be the only person in this thread illustrating a religious bias??? You religiously believe that Jesus HAD to be mythical and are fervently attacking anything that doesn't agree with your religious belief...

I have to laugh at the stupidity of someone who speaks like you out of one side of your mouth and claims to represent science out of the other. LOL...

Jaden

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: puzzlesphere

Dear puzzlesphere, excuse me but it is evident that you need a good course of History of the Christendom.

I was clearly referring only to the Historic records that correspond to the western Europe, because the previous one belong the Bizantine Empire and in that context this same object would be called The Holy Mandylion or the Image of Edessa, depending of the epoch, that actually existed, according with civil and church records.

These what those records provide about the way in which the Shroud came from Palestine to North Italy through France, Greece, Turkey and Syria: ( again please understand that is not my Theory, it is what Historians have researched on the topic)

The image of Edessa was owned by the King Abgar of Edessa, today Turkey, in the 1st century of the common era:

Eusebios of Cesarea in the third century wrote the first written version of its history:

In his History of the Church (1.13.5-1.13.22). Eusebius claimed that he had transcribed and translated the actual letter in the Syriac chancery documents of the king of Edessa. This records a letter written by King Abgar of Edessa to Jesus, asking him to come cure him of an illness. Jesus replies by letter, saying that when he had completed his earthly mission and ascended to heaven, he would send a disciple to heal Abgar (and does so).

en.wikipedia.org...

It was the disciple St Jude, the same Saint patron of the Children hospitals in America, called later Thaddeus of Edessa, who was commissioned to visit the king. He was the one to bring the image of Jesus in a cloth to the King. If you check all the images that are made until our days of that Saint shows him carrying in his chest an object with the face of Christ stamped on it.

en.wikipedia.org...

First mention of the Edessa Image after that time is on the 384 AD when Egeria a woman French pilgrim visited Edessa an in a tour were allowed to see it.

There is a book that describe her trips:

Egeria Gaulian Pilgrim to middle east.

The Edessa image is also referred again on the 593 year of the common Era in the Evagrius Scholasticus:

en.wikipedia.org...

This Shroud was then moved by the byzantine troops toward Contantinople along the centuries of the Persian Sasanide expansion in the eastern Mediterranean.

One evidence of this trip is the existence of another object called the Keramidion, dated in the century 6th or 7th, that was a copy of the face of Christ on it , that it is believed was miracously stamped by simple contact with the Edessa Cloth or the Mandylion. This is a tile that is now preserved in the Caucasus in the monastery of Ancha in Georgia.

en.wikipedia.org...

In the year 944 the Bizantines brought the Mandylion to Constantinople , today Istanbul Turkey, where it was kept in the Holy Sophia Cathedral.

www.shroud2000.com...

It was from there that the French Templar knights would have taken it during the IV crusade. A burial cloth, which some historians maintain was the Shroud, was owned by the Byzantine emperors, but disappeared during the Sack of Constantinople in 1204.

Geoffroi de Charny, French knight who is certified, even with coins of the epoch ,that owned the Shroud of Turin in the XIII century was nephew of another Geoffroi de Charny, that was a Templar and who went with Oton the la Roche to Constantinople in the crusade he took part in. The Templar knight Oton the La Roche was the first westerner who saw the Mandylion in public exhibition every Friday's Prayer in Istambul in 1204. He is also the first person that it is known owned the Shroud of Turin in France.

greatshroudofturinfaq.com...

Thanks for your interesting question,

The Angel of Lightness

Just as a note in addition to the private note I sent you earlier today, I forgot to mention something someone in Europe probably wouldn't know. In the US, there is no study of the Byzantine empire or of the Roman empire in the Eastern provinces. Generally speaking, and yes, it is a generalization but true none the less, most Americans, even those who consider themselves "educated" have had no exposure to valid historical research and or the original source materials for historical research into the Eastern Roman empire as it was constituted from 100 BC to 525 AD. Generally speaking again, they view recitations of that history and/or quotes from the source materials to be nothing more than made up mythology. I mention this only as a friendly aside to aid your understanding of the peculiar issues your facing in this "debate".
Thanks.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Well Dear Gryphon66, If I follow you correctly your are doubtful about the Shroud authenticity since the bible accounts talk about 2 clothes in the empty tomb, according with what was seen by St Peter and St John, is that the point, is this what you refer to?

If that is what is worrying you let me tell that the smaller cloth is the Holy Sudarium that currently archived in the Cathedral of Oviedo in Spain.

What makes the Holy sudarium of Oviedo even more interesting that the Shroud is that the amount of blood present, that corresponds to same AB type found in the Shroud, is such that has allowed to carry the needed DNA tests to determine that it is actually Human but moreover that belong to a semitic man and even more intriguing that there is no traceable gens of the father on it.

www.realdiscoveries.info...

This discovering would be really outstanding since it validate the virginal conception of Christ that is the other extraordinary paranormal event that makes him a unique figure in History.

Thanks for your comment.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: puzzlesphere

not really... it seems more like every time he addresses a point of contention you bring up, you attempt to obfuscate that by jumping over to another topic...

Jaden

a reply to: aorAki

He's not making that argument at ALL!!! This op was merely to give scientific and statistical credence to the dating of the shroud, the other things and it's relation to Jesus of Nazareth are different issues..

Jaden

Well angel I think you have a magnificent topic here, what I find interesting is that so many reputable scientist and scholars have taken an interest in the shroud, that says something.

I think they know more then they are saying.

a reply to: windword

Dear Windword,

The recent discovery of a second image of the face of Christ in the reverse of the Shroud, that normally has been covered along the centuries by another piece of Cloth sewed to it, supports the theory of formation by radiation.

This is because two important aspects to consider

1) Since being the image of the front and reverse faces of the cloth superficial, there is nothing in the layers of material in between them, how they could be stamped separately if this would be lets say a painting, considering that they have a correspondence point by point? if they would be two stamped images using a solid matrix, like a sculpture or a human body, with paint or dye they would be mirrored versions of the same face.

2) Taking in account that they are mapped point by point there is no way at all this could be a photography, since it is not possible to obtain the two prints from the same angle of a person in direct and in reverse expositions over the two sides of the same surface using optical means, only something that is able to penetrate matter can do that, just radiation can do that, as X rays.

Here the optical study using infrared and ultraviolet light of the faded image of the reverse side that remained hidden for centuries because the Shroud was sewed to other piece of cloth.

iopscience.iop.org...

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness