The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun

originally posted by: budski

It's a nice try, but anecdotal "evidence" in no way trumps statistical evidence.
If anything, it simply shows a misunderstanding of what statistical evidence actually means.

Statistically speaking, I'm more likely to drown in a swimming pool than be shot.

a reply to: budski

If you do not live in the US and like your gun laws, you can keep your gun laws. If you want to take our guns away, feel free to come over and try. The chance that America will have a total gun ban is very very slim at best.

Oh and one more stat you might want to mention, according to National Crime Victimization Survey there are at least 100,000 defensive gun use every year. So yes, in the right hands guns do saves lives.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: budski

What....your saying that criminals are included in the responsible gun ownership category? They go check in to let the statisticians know they have a few guns? Again....you are wrong. Responsible gun owners ARE the ones in the stats.

The drop is not small by ANY means at all....it is huge.

And by the way , the last article you posted does not relate to gun BANNING...it relates to gun LAWS. Laws are there for responsible gun owners to follow, and they do. The article ALSO states:

The real question is not about the number of firearm laws but whether the laws ultimately safeguard the citizens they are intended to protect. Although multiple studies have examined the relationship between federal and state firearm laws and homicide and suicide rates, the overall association between firearm legislation and firearm mortality is uncertain and remains controversial.7,8

So they can't even be certain about their research and stats, yet you are taking it as fact....again.....FAIL.

No, I'm saying, as you well know, that buying a lot more guns in response to legislation means that the ratio becomes skewed, and it does.

I see you have the internet disease where you think that posting puerile arguments means you have "won".
Just because you keep shouting "fail" doesn't make it true.

Ah.....an admission without and admission...I don't need to say FAIL...you have, completely and repeatedly.

You're OP and source are trying to say that the more guns we have the more homicides that occur. It is simply a false statement and I even proved that to you based on a link in YOUR SOURCE ARTICLE.

The more guns we have the LESS homicides occur....here, let me AGAIN post the graph showing that you are wrong on all points:



See that HUGE drop in there...that correlates to an attempt at banning numerous types of firearms. Gun ownership stats are directly tied to responsible gun owners who go through the proper channels to obtain a gun. The stats YOU linked to show that homicides by gun have had a major drop, even lower to what they were in the 1980's.

Geez...this is getting so old. You have lost the argument yet keep trying to spin it in some other fashion to fit your agenda.

Maybe start another thread on a specific subset of the category that matches whatever point you want to prove, like "gun deaths are up in criminals who obtain them illegally and commit crimes" or something.....

a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

originally posted by: misskat1
I live in Anderson Northern Ca, which is #5 on the FBI highest crime area in Ca. Im a grandma, and I keep a gun in my dresser, and I have a hidden clip close enough to grab if I need to defend myself or my family.

Ive had helicopters looking for bad guys, and my neighbor has called 2 times to tell me to stay inside, because they can see them in my yard hiding.

Im not willing to live in fear or to be a victim. So, although I dont think about my weapon often, Im prepared if I need to protect myself. Im glad you live in such a safe area, but I dont. And yes, I know how to use. Dont F%$ with this granny.

Suppose a criminal has just broken into your house brandishing a firearm. You need to protect yourself and your family. Wouldn’t anyone feel safer owning a gun? This is the kind of narrative propagated by gun advocates in defense of firearm ownership. It preys on our fear. Yet, the annual per capita risk of death during a home invasion is 0.0000002, which, for all intents and purposes, is zero.

originally posted by: budski
If you care nothing for your society, then huge amounts of guns aren't a problem.
If you DO care about your society, you would recognise that there is a problem.

Now, is this because you say so, or just because you say so.

Your opinion on the matter aside, you're using flawed (or 'no') logic in making a statement like that.

If you care nothing for your society's guaranteed freedoms, then advocating banning guns based on questionable studies/statistics isn't a problem.
If you DO care about your society's guaranteed freedoms, you would recognise that banning guns does nothing to squash the ownership and usage of guns by your society's criminals.

Sure, reducing the amount of or removing entirely potentially dangerous things from society would equate to less accidents or injuries or deaths from said thing. But that's not a realistic answer to the issue.

And further, polling in 2012 showed that well less than half of the homes in America have a firearm. So, even though you rail on about there being more guns that peole, that isn't relevant when less than half of the homes are the ones with the firearms, and the average American household is 2.6 people as of 2009. So, we have between 2-3 guns per household with firearms, but those households average out to equate to about 18% of the US population. So, using that math, it seems to be an average of less that 1/5 of our population that has access to firearms. I'm not showing my math here, but suffice to say that I took 47% of 304-ish million (the population of 'Murca), then divided that by 2.6 (to determine the number of homes with guns in them), then divided that by 304-ish million again to get the percentage of the population. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not, but even if I'm off by five or 10 percent, that still paints a massively diferent picture than your implication that every American has access to guns and are potential killers.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Punisher75

originally posted by: budski


Nope, I said you would give them up straight away like good little boys and girls the minute the government came calling.
Americans don't seem to have a problem using them on each other, and the excuses they come out with are ludicrous.

You're not very good at this are you?

So we are willing to kill people, but just not certain people?
I am sorry but that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Nope, you're willing to shout and yell a lot about "rights" and "Gov'ment takin away my rights" but if push came to shove and they turned up on your doorstep to take them away, all the big talk would vanish.

You don't know Americans very well do you? I know for a fact most of my friends back home in the U.S. would not hesitate one second to open fire on a jack-booted government thug who tried to take away his legally owned firearm. Americans are willing, and have in the past proved that they are more than willing to fight and die for their rights.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Punisher75

originally posted by: budski


Nope, I said you would give them up straight away like good little boys and girls the minute the government came calling.
Americans don't seem to have a problem using them on each other, and the excuses they come out with are ludicrous.

You're not very good at this are you?

So we are willing to kill people, but just not certain people?
I am sorry but that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Nope, you're willing to shout and yell a lot about "rights" and "Gov'ment takin away my rights" but if push came to shove and they turned up on your doorstep to take them away, all the big talk would vanish.

You don't know Americans very well do you? I know for a fact most of my friends back home in the U.S. would not hesitate one second to open fire on a jack-booted government thug who tried to take away his legally owned firearm. Americans are willing, and have in the past proved that they are more than willing to fight and die for their rights.

Rubbish.
They talk a good game is all.

You gave up more rights after 9/11 than any other country at any time in history.

originally posted by: budski

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

That is because our Guns are the thing that gives us the ability to fight back if it comes to it. No one wants to rush in "guns blazing" cause no one wants to die, but Gun owners are not going to give up our last resort option.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

And yet...they still don't come for our guns.

a reply to: budski

I recall a recent situation in Nevada where the federal government deployed armed teams to force a rancher to surrender their ranch.

I also recall armed citizens coming to the aid of said rancher in which the federal government was effectively backed down.

What does that say about gun rights and government?

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

LOL! Wait, so you are basing this on what? Does the news over there report we are in some militia just waiting on government to come knocking so we can fight them or something?

The central tenet of the pro gun argument are not militia, they are people like me that live in neighborhoods and have kids and family.

Is there some other stat page I have not seen from you that suggests the majority of gun owners in the US are in some from of anti government militia waiting for this to happen or something?

Wow....that is REALLY out of touch with our reality over here if that is the case. I feel bad that this is how you think of us because it could not possibly be farther from the truth or the facts.

a reply to: Vasa Croe

If you can post the correlation using anything other than anecdotal evidence, your point MIGHT have some credence, otherwise it's bullplop.
You SAY that gun ownership went up, and you keep saying it correlates, but I've yet to see this.

originally posted by: budski

"Suppose a criminal has just broken into your house brandishing a firearm. You need to protect yourself and your family. Wouldn’t anyone feel safer owning a gun? This is the kind of narrative propagated by gun advocates in defense of firearm ownership. It preys on our fear. Yet, the annual per capita risk of death during a home invasion is 0.0000002, which, for all intents and purposes, is zero"

Let's use statistics, shall we?

In 2011, there were ~32,000 deaths due to firearms. The estimated number of total firearms owned by civilians is estimated between 270Million and 310Million. For average's sake, we'll call it 290M.

That means that the percentage of firearm deaths in realtion to amount of firearms is 0.0001, which, for all intents and purposes, is zero.

Your selective use of statistics just adds to the pile of bovine dung upon which you're mounting this entire thread.

Also, keep in mind that the statistic you use only discusses risk of death--death isn't the only reason people keep firearms for personal protection. I'd prefer my wife doesn't get raped by an intruder, or any of my family get physically assaulted (but left alive) by criminals on my own property, against whom I have a legal right to use deadly force.

The mods should end this thread--your arguments are weak and misrepresentative of the realities behind the "why" firearm owners take on the responsibility of owning them.

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Punisher75

originally posted by: budski


Nope, I said you would give them up straight away like good little boys and girls the minute the government came calling.
Americans don't seem to have a problem using them on each other, and the excuses they come out with are ludicrous.

You're not very good at this are you?

So we are willing to kill people, but just not certain people?
I am sorry but that is the dumbest argument I have ever heard.

Nope, you're willing to shout and yell a lot about "rights" and "Gov'ment takin away my rights" but if push came to shove and they turned up on your doorstep to take them away, all the big talk would vanish.

You don't know Americans very well do you? I know for a fact most of my friends back home in the U.S. would not hesitate one second to open fire on a jack-booted government thug who tried to take away his legally owned firearm. Americans are willing, and have in the past proved that they are more than willing to fight and die for their rights.

Rubbish.
They talk a good game is all.

You gave up more rights after 9/11 than any other country at any time in history.

So you don't live in America, don't know a thing about American resolve, make sweeping judgments and generalizations of the American people, and when confronted about the fallacy of your generalizations, you dismiss it entirely as "rubbish".

I see now that continuing to have an intelligent discourse with you is impossible. Enjoy your close-minded bigotry. I'll be abandoning this thread. You can call that a victory if you want. Good day.

originally posted by: budski

Rubbish.
They talk a good game is all.

You gave up more rights after 9/11 than any other country at any time in history.

Dude you are delusional. I am sorry but when someone like you comes along and talks their nonsense without knowing anything about the population other than your stereotypes about Americans it becomes laughable.
Just take your ball and go home man you have lost the intellectual argument, the rhetorical argument, the factual argument, and now you have resorted to conjecture about an entire demographic that is part of a culture that you don't know nor understand.
Your done man.
Really, you lost.

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

LOL! Wait, so you are basing this on what? Does the news over there report we are in some militia just waiting on government to come knocking so we can fight them or something?

The central tenet of the pro gun argument are not militia, they are people like me that live in neighborhoods and have kids and family.

Is there some other stat page I have not seen from you that suggests the majority of gun owners in the US are in some from of anti government militia waiting for this to happen or something?

Wow....that is REALLY out of touch with our reality over here if that is the case. I feel bad that this is how you think of us because it could not possibly be farther from the truth or the facts.

Based on your very own NRA.

You know, those guys who turn up to the funerals of gun victims to shout about their guns being "good".

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: budski

I do love the attempts at satirizing American speech to make us all appear to be uneducated rednecks. Really, it's cool. Totally helps me see your side of things.

If what you say is true, then why hasn't the government come calling for all our guns yet? I mean, according to you, all Americans will do is shout and yell about "the Gov'ment takin" away our rights and yet....here we are.

Surely you're not so much of a genius that you alone have deduced this "fact," are you?

OK, apologies for that.

The point is that this is a central tenet of the pro gun argument - to protect oneself from the government trying to take away peoples rights.
And yet so many rights (as you see them) have already been taken away with nary a whisper.
Then when it comes to guns, some get all gung ho, and start giving it charlton heston.

LOL! Wait, so you are basing this on what? Does the news over there report we are in some militia just waiting on government to come knocking so we can fight them or something?

The central tenet of the pro gun argument are not militia, they are people like me that live in neighborhoods and have kids and family.

Is there some other stat page I have not seen from you that suggests the majority of gun owners in the US are in some from of anti government militia waiting for this to happen or something?

Wow....that is REALLY out of touch with our reality over here if that is the case. I feel bad that this is how you think of us because it could not possibly be farther from the truth or the facts.

Based on your very own NRA.

You know, those guys who turn up to the funerals of gun victims to shout about their guns being "good".

The NRA says we're all in anti-government militias? Where's that at?

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: budski

"Suppose a criminal has just broken into your house brandishing a firearm. You need to protect yourself and your family. Wouldn’t anyone feel safer owning a gun? This is the kind of narrative propagated by gun advocates in defense of firearm ownership. It preys on our fear. Yet, the annual per capita risk of death during a home invasion is 0.0000002, which, for all intents and purposes, is zero"

Let's use statistics, shall we?

In 2011, there were ~32,000 deaths due to firearms. The estimated number of total firearms owned by civilians is estimated between 270Million and 310Milling. For average's sake, we'll call it 290M.

That means that the percentage of firearm deaths in realtion to amount of firearms is 0.0001, which, for all intents and purposes, is zero.

Your selective use of statistics just adds to the pile of bovine dung upon which you're mounting this entire thread.

So, you think that over 30,000 people a year dying is OK?
You think that those 30,000 people don't matter?

More insults from the gun nuts.
Keep em coming.
I pay no heed to those who care so little for their fellow man that they are prepared to accept > 30k deaths if it means they can hang onto their toys.