German intelligence: the death toll in Ukraine is 50 thousand

originally posted by: thesaneone
a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

Smh

How is this about the U.S?

It is a classic deflection. Rather than analyze the accuracy of the figures, the thread will now see the usual suspects repeating the completely unproven assertion that the United States is responsible for the situation.

To steer the thread back on course: the article, which cites an unknown source in the intelligence community, uses conditional language: there may be as many as 50,000 casualties. This is not based on actual observation, but an inference based on the continual nature of the violence. There is a tendency for both sides in a conflict to publish figures that support whatever case they are trying to make to the public. The ultimate source for this figure is an intelligence analyst making a random guess.

a reply to: pirhanna

originally posted by: pirhanna
From the research I have done online, it seems to me that German Intelligence is the primary force behind the war in Ukraine.

Well, that is truly an extraordinary claim.

I'd like to see the required extraordinary evidence, please.

*eta:
I'd say it is pretty much known by now that we have military reconnaissance / intelligence within Ukraine.
This doesn't prove BND/AMK were "the primary force behind the war" though.

My girlfriends father lives in Ukraine. Specifically Kiev.
It's not that bad.

originally posted by: DJW001
There is a tendency for both sides in a conflict to publish figures that support whatever case they are trying to make to the public. The ultimate source for this figure is an intelligence analyst making a random guess.

True but the other issue revolves around Russian media who over the last year has published figures that mimic Ukraine's numbers. In the last UNSC meeting the death toll was discussed and the Russian Ambassador referred to the 5k number.

More than 50 000 people dead... only for an abstract principle of "national unity" and "Ukrainian purity", and for serving Western interests. After months of fighting, Kiev could have just agreed to negotiate a new partitioning of the country, but nooo, they had to make people pay for not submitting to their new rules. They're the ones paying now, with heavy losses and severe defeat.

Here you have the demonstration of authoritarian politics.

a reply to: Echtelion

After months of fighting, Kiev could have just agreed to negotiate a new partitioning of the country, but nooo, they had to make people pay for not submitting to their new rules. They're the ones paying now, with heavy losses and severe defeat.

And why should Ukraine partition any part of it's country?

Do you think Russia would do the same where they just give up part of their country because they have some citizens that aren't happy with the government...because I really don't see this happening.

UNHCR Report - Fatalities / deaths - Jan 2014 thru Feb 2015 - **PDF Link**

Ukraine crisis: Putin to confer with leaders by phone

Ukraine's war: The human cost

* - 5,358 people killed and 12,235 wounded in eastern Ukraine

* - Fatalities include 298 people on board flight MH17 shot down on 17 July

* - 224 civilians killed in three-week period leading up to 1 February

* - 5.2 million people estimated to be living in conflict areas

* - 921,640 internally displaced people within Ukraine, including 136,216 children

* - 600,000 fled to neighbouring countries of whom more than 400,000 have gone to Russia

Source: Figures from UN High Commissioner for Human Rights 3 February, and UN report, 21 January

info is about half way down in the article(s).

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Echtelion

After months of fighting, Kiev could have just agreed to negotiate a new partitioning of the country, but nooo, they had to make people pay for not submitting to their new rules. They're the ones paying now, with heavy losses and severe defeat.

And why should Ukraine partition any part of it's country?

Do you think Russia would do the same where they just give up part of their country because they have some citizens that aren't happy with the government...because I really don't see this happening.

Well, it isn't just "some citizens". There were referendums in Donetsk and Crimea where people massively voted in favor of separation, and though I DON'T expect any centralized State to recognize the sovereignty of a region after a referendum and protests (think Spain-Catalonia/Basque country, Britain-Scotland/Northern Ireland, Canada-Quebec, etc), that's at least a "common sense" they should have been led to concede, after months of civil war and many losses, especially on their own side. It's just blind stupidity to be keeping the hard line, ESPECIALLY in such an explosively divided country. But it's a lot to expect from dominant political organizations in Kiev being neo-fascists and ultra-nationalists willing to create an all-Ukrainian nation by either kicking away Russians or killing them. The programs of Fatherland and Svoboda are very clear on these intentions.

And it's not like Ukraine at it was a year ago was so much an old, firmly-defined territory, you know... As it was not, and still isn't, in light of recent events.

Like it or not, Ukraine has been already partitioned, did you know that? All I was saying is that it's very sad that 50 000 people had to die for this, while they could have just found a concrete diplomatic solution. But again... the people in charge in Kiev have been pictured doing sieg heils and accepting their crowds and battalions to wear wolfsangels, celtic crosses, svatikas... so it wasn't that surprising.

The hacked documents confirm also that the death toll is most likely much higher, and if the losses are now much higher as admitted, they were probably also much higher last summer.

Ukrainian Military: ‘Official Figures Not Credible,’ REAL Death Toll of 50,000 casualties in Ukraine, German Intel Says

Just one day before the report was published, the Ukrainian president gave completely different numbers to the international community.

“The death toll for the Ukrainian soldiers defending land from the aggressor is now 1,432. Thousands of people, 5,638, have been killed since April [2014] and every single day the number of victims among the civilians is rising,” Petro Poroshenko said in his address to the 51st Munich Security Conference on Saturday.

The Ukrainian army is reported to be suffering its heaviest losses since the beginning of the conflict last spring. According to the Donetsk militia representative, Eduard Basurin, the Ukrainian army has lost 1,569 servicemen in just three weeks since restarting the offensive.

The anti-government activists claim they have hacked personal computer of Ukraine’s Judge Advocate General and copied a number of classified documents. These documents are allegedly exposing some dark secrets of Kiev’s authorities regarding the real state of things in the zone of the so-called ‘anti-terrorist operation’ in the eastern Donetsk and Lugansk regions of the country.

The price of the warfare resumed by President Petro Poroshhenko in the east is terrifying. The hacked documents claim at least 1,100 servicemen of the Ukrainian army have lost their lives over the period of the last two weeks. Many dozens Ukrainian soldiers gave up to rebel forces. Ukrainian army has lost over 100 tanks and the armored vehicles.

The explanation to this is simple: according to the documents allegedly hacked, Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) has officially forbidden the Defense Ministry to reveal true casualties among servicemen.

Source

originally posted by: Xcathdra


Third - linking to a source that links back to Russian media as the primary reporting entity is fail.

Ah yeh, and I supposed sources from the Ukraine or the West are better yeh?

Grow up.

a reply to: mortex

Considering the number of times Russian media has been caught lying and manufacturing news stories about Ukraine yes, western media is more reliable than the science fiction Russian media puts out.

As for the last part you need to take your own advice.

a reply to: Xcathdra


Got any proof of this "reliability"?

And furthermore, when can we have a perfect earth not run by agendas that make no sense to most of us anyways.

Why take sides when has this gotten anyone anywhere ??

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Got any proof of this "reliability"?

Yes - The western media has not gone on a propaganda campaign and have not made up news stories about Ukraine as Russian media has done. Look at the comparative reports between the 2.

stopfake.org is a good sight for comparative media. Specifically they have a section that lists Russian media accounts and then provides the links to where they got their "photos" and "videos" from. Russia tries to pass it off as whats occurring in Ukraine when in fact the pictures / video are coming from other countries.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
And furthermore, when can we have a perfect earth not run by agendas that make no sense to most of us anyways.

Get involved in your government and demand change.

originally posted by: ParasuvO
Why take sides when has this gotten anyone anywhere ??

Ideally all humans should be on the same side however as a species we are to stupid and territorial to live with each other in peace. So we make do with whats present.

a reply to: Xcathdra

The western media has not gone on a propaganda campaign and have not made up news stories about Ukraine as Russian media has done.

Sorry, but did you really just say that? There has been nothing but propaganda from the western media since this whole mess started. Remember "Putin's Missile" and "Putin Killed My Baby" just to name a couple? You can say whatever you like about Russian media. That's fine, it's your prerogative. But to have the gall to make a patently false statement like that just completely flushes any credibility you had straight down the toilet.

a reply to: Echtelion

Well, it isn't just "some citizens". There were referendums in Donetsk and Crimea where people massively voted in favor of separation,

Well let's look at those shall we, because the so called referendum in Crimea was a farce even the Russian gov't said it was, also when there is no choice of staying with UKraine how fair was the vote?

As for the East...the separatists actually want autonomy and would rather stay part of Ukraine as a whole, and the funniest thing is Russia doesn't want, or can't support the same people they said they would in the beginning, so their referendum of leaving Ukraine really is nothing more than a pipe dream.

You can read more here...

www.ibtimes.com...

Also it looks as though the East want's to stay partvof Ukraine...



But feel free to show where they want to leave Ukraine, because it has been shown they would rather stay with Ukraine as a whole but they would stay just an autonomous area within Ukraine.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Source

First off your source uses the same one this thread is made around...which btw doesn't actually provide evidence to back that claim, in fact it says they think so your evidence is far from being verified as real and the more you say it is doesn't make it any truer.

Thinking a number is something and saying it is definite are two different things...you really should learn the difference.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I'm sorry, but what was this thread about? Oh, yes, yes... "German intelligence: the death toll in Ukraine is 50 thousand". Isn't it interesting there is next to nothing mentioned about this Topic in this thread? Everyone here wants to argue about military strategy, Putin and whether Poland and Lithuania are joining with the Ukrainian Army. For everyone who wrote in this thread about something other than assessing the important possibility of as many 50,000 dead in Ukraine, face it, You Don't Care about how many people die over there. Your opinion is really the number one international security priority. Personally, as this thread has gone so far off topic, I do not consider anyone's opinion here as sincere or credible. In light of so many closet military planning bloggers here, I could imagine that if there were in fact 50,000 dead over there, few would care, notice or want to know.
As last night there was a massive explosion in Donetsk, some folks at first thought it might have been a tactical nuke. Hypothetically if it was, and WW3 started, North American cities would have been vaporized in an hour. But who would have thought to run for cover? Most people would have been vaporized watching TV, blogging their worthless opinions or arguing with someone over Putin. As in this thread, 50,000 people could actually have been killed in Ukraine. How close could we get to having casualties here? If folks are unwilling to consider mass Ukrainian casualties, what makes anyone else's life on this digressive blog any more worthy?

a reply to: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Xcathdra
Yes - The western media has not gone on a propaganda campaign and have not made up news stories about Ukraine as Russian media has done.

Oh come on, Xcathdra.
You struck me as a reasonable person before. You cannot actually believe that.

First, there is no single "western media", although it is very worrying that most of the MSM are owned by only a few names and corporations.

Second, several western media-outlets were indeed caught lying / spreading propaganda.

I don't want to speak for the United States (I'm sure someone from the U.S. would be better suited for this), but we know for a fact that parts of the German media were reprimanded by our press council to have violated the press codex in punkto Ukraine, AND we know the U.S. tried to systematically influence our media.

You're right to mistrust Russian state media... you're wrong just trusting western media.

a reply to: naftaland

Welcome to ATS,

where threads drift like currencies, and emotions tend to dominate debates.

This site used to be about denying ignorance once, though.

a reply to: ColCurious

Western media is made up of varying backgrounds and points of view where as Russian media is completely controlled by the state. Those entities who reported criticism of the Russian actions were shut down. Russian media outlets don't bother to fact check / call out other Russian media when they blatantly lie.

Western media does call each other out.

Do a comparison between Russian media reporting on Ukraine and western media reporting on Ukraine. Stopfake.org has examples of Russian media reporting one thing only to find out they fabricated evidence to push their agenda.

how about this -
Western media is the lesser of 2 evils.