Salvation, Election, Forever, Hell-----Refining, Ages, Priest-Kings, Healing

What a title eh? I wrote the title as a comparison. On the left you see the words that are commonly translated in our modern bibles, which are the source of so much error in our modern theology. On the right are better definitions that speak of the greater hope, the True Good News.

The main thrust of this post is to cover the concepts of "hell" and "forever". I believe there is no greater error in the mind of man than the concept that a loving God would condemn his children to an eternal hell. And I intend to show from the biblical record that in fact the opposite is true. And this fact has been covered up for far too long by those who wish to continue their enslavement of humanity.

I'll come right out with my points then follow up with scripture. There is a lot to cover so please bear with me.

The vast majority of modern western christians believe some version of this:

You are a sinner, and God is holy. God can't come into contact with sin, so he needs to punish you out of his justice for being born a dirty sinner. Thankfully God sent his only Son to take our place and be tortured at the hands of God, his Father, and ultimately die, this is the justice we deserve. If you say a magic prayer and/or follow certain denominational rites you will be saved and go to heaven when you die. If you fail to say the sinner's prayer, and/or become a backslider by failing to follow certain denominational codes of conduct then you will not be saved and you will go to hell when you die.

This is all from the loving God [puke]. Now you may have been elected to make it to heaven, "yay lottery". Or you may have chosen to go to heaven, "yay me". Calvinism or Arminianism respectively.

There are a small minority that believe that instead of going to hell you are annihilated after death. This is a slightly more humane version of the above.

Whether Arminian, Calvinist, or Annihilationist, I believe they are all wrong (and I'm lumping them together against my thesis) Now its not to say that there aren't apparent texts that support these schools of thought. But when looking at the Greek and Hebrew usages of a few core words, correlated with current usage at the time the texts were written along with looking at the whole of the Scriptures that a very different picture emerges.

Let me just say that I spent the first 33 years of my life with the calvinist version of the "gospel" as a good evangelical christian. (well not always good).

Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) is the first pillar I wish to knock down, it is the main foundation of the false gospel.

Instead I believe that the truth is what is referred to as Ultimate Reconciliation (UR) That all things are and will continue to be reconciled to God. That God can't lose any, that all things including all humans ever created are a part of God's family, and that is the true Good News (of great joy that shall be for all the people)

Continued--

But the bible says that hell is eternal or forever and ever and ever and ever?

BTW how is it that something can be longer than forever? Is "and ever" like infinity +1 ? Forever isn't long enough, no we must really make it stick, its forever and ever.

This post we will look at the concept of eternal/forever.

G166 Aionos
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
without beginning
without end, never to cease, everlasting


[Mat 19:16 KJV] 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[Mat 25:46 KJV] 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
[Mar 3:29 KJV] 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
[Jhn 3:16 KJV] 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Aionos is the adjective of the noun Aion G165.

Aion is our word Aeon, or Eon. The word properly means an age, or epoch or a time period. Aionos is a little trickier, as an adjective describes something. It is describing a quality of the Age, which is the Life of God, as He is the source of all but especially of "THE Age". It is not that God isn't eternal, but God is the God of Ages, and works in Ages. And the vast majority of time that the word "eternal" is used it refers to an age.

I'm just pointing out a few of the uses of Aion
[Mat 21:19 KJV] 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever.(not world?) And presently the fig tree withered away.
[Mat 24:3 KJV] 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?(end of eternity?)
[Luk 1:70 KJV] 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting. world is aion g165 everlasting is g166
[Luk 20:34 KJV] 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world (this eternity?) marry, and are given in marriage:
[Eph 1:21 KJV] 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world(eternity?), but also in that which is to come:
[Eph 2:7 KJV] 7 That in the ages (why ages not world?) to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[Eph 3:9, 11, 21 KJV] 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: ... 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: ... 21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
[Eph 6:12 KJV] 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

You will see the the utter absurdity of the translators. The word eternal means without beginning and without end. But it can also mean world, and age????

Now, could all of the above be translated as age? Yes they could, and that is the simple meaning of the word Aion, it is an Age. When we see for ever and ever, it is really the Age of the Ages, or the Ages of the Ages. Long time? Yes maybe but still a time. The age of Moses, or the Age of the law proceeded the Age of the Son.

[1Co 10:11 KJV] 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

No the end of the ages. There were no previous eternities or eternities to come, this is nonsense. Eternity is without beginning or without end. But the ages (which are 7 and are typified in the feasts of Israel) have a beginning and an end. The end of the age that Jesus spoke about was the end of the Mosaic temple based age. And it was finished 40 years after he was crucified and arose, the final nail in the coffin of the law was the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. That is the end of the world that so many have warned of. It already took place. The little apocalypse of Matthew speaks of 70 ad, along with Jesus' use of Hell which is where I'm going Post.

I've just scratched the surface. Search for yourself. Don't take my word for it, don't take your pastor, or your denomination, or your theology, or your parents, or anything else. Look up the words. Spend a few minutes and read every passage that has Aion, and Aionos in them. Notice the utter confusion in the translations. How can something be "without beginning or without end", and also "never" "for ever", "world", "an age"(which implies a time frame).

Aion G165 www.blueletterbible.org...
Aionos G166 www.blueletterbible.org...

I also do not believe the Bible teaches eternal torture.

This is just copy and pasted from another thread I posted it in, but it is relevant to this one so I will add it here.

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mathew 10:28

First death body. Second death soul.

The punishment is eternal in the sense you have no hope of salvation because you have been utterly destroyed.

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

Destruction that is everlasting. Not everlasting torment. That wouldn't be destruction. Once something is destroyed it's gone forever. Or as scripture puts it, eternal.

The LORD preserves all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy. Psalm 145:20

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Wouldn't everlasting existence in Hell still count as... eternal life? Obviously it would be far less enjoyable but still.. eternal. Yet that's not consistent with "the wages of sin is death" is it?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

"perish" a.k.a. destroy both soul and body in hell.
"eternal life" a.k.a. heaven everlasting.

Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

"leads to destruction" e.g. of the body and soul.
"road that leads to life" e.g. eternal life.

There is an extensive Bible study on the subject here.

a reply to: zardust

ZD,
Thanks for writing this .It is almost unbelievable anyone would desire anyone to be tortured for an infinite amount of time and believe the heinous perversion that the creator God would tacitly be the judge, jury and torturer.If that is good news...bad must be the new good.

Best of luck with all the responses you get however please continue to write regardless because what matters most here at ATS is denying the ignorance of the religious doctrines of men.The Good news will remain unchanged even though the many are called will not hear it in this age.

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer



For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Wouldn't everlasting existence in Hell still count as... eternal life? Obviously it would be far less enjoyable but still.. eternal. Yet that's not consistent with "the wages of sin is death" is it?

Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Mathew 7:13-14

"perish" a.k.a. destroy both soul and body in hell.
"eternal life" a.k.a. heaven everlasting.

-------------------

Hell is the translation of Hades which is the realm of death and imperception.There is no "life" in Hades it is the absence of life just as darkness is the absence of light.The physical realm "age"/realm is the valley of the shadows of death (and life) because everything that lives in this realm/age will die.

A person or body does not "have a soul a person is a soul.The soul is a "living being" with a flesh body that is animated by spirit(life).When the body dies it has no life (spirit) and the "soul"/person is dead.In other words it is in Hades the realm of death and imperception.

Heaven is not a "place" it is the condition(state of being) of the "mind"/consciousness.Everyone "lives" in their heavens however they are not IN the "kingdom" of their heavens because they do not "rule" them as kings because their mind is in the realm of imperception and is ruled by their "religious carnal mind" (satan) the adversary.The religious carnal mind is on the broad road with the wide gate(channels).Going through a channel is the the meaning of the Greek word diabolo translated demon...which are not "evil spiritual beings".

The "Kingdom" of your heavens is entered in through the narrow path and the straight gate(the anointing which is the meaning of christ).That is when a person is no longer ruled by their religious carnal mind.What Yahoshua and the disciples said/wrote was very basic(especially the disciples). Yahoshua only proclaimed the "coming of the Kingdom of the creator God "in" the Kingdom of your heavens.For the many are called(all of mankind) that will happen in "another age".Only the disciples(the few are chosen) entered the narrow path and gate in this age.

Goodness! For once, others have made the argument and I have nothing to add. Well, this, that the concept of ECT (Eternal Conscious Torture) is only made possible by the idea of the Immortality of the Soul, which comes down to us from pagan (mostly Greek) philosophy. It is not Biblical, as the Bible states that the soul that sins will die. Well, what is the resurrection for if we don't really die?

Also, have you all noticed that all accounts of Hell are fiction? I speak of Dante, Milton, and Baxter.

The OP is well along on the right track.

Heaven, yes!
Hell, no.

Yeah but nah
There is a good argument made for both sides.
Mine is based in the Garden where God doesnt allow humanity to eat from the tree of eternal life, so eternal life remains elusive for now.
I dont have an argument but I wont agree because i just dont know

Behold the nail, behold the hand

a reply to: Rex282

Thanks for writing this .It is almost unbelievable anyone would desire anyone to be tortured for an infinite amount of time and believe the heinous perversion that the creator God would tacitly be the judge, jury and torturer.If that is good news...bad must be the new good.

Don't you think it would be better stated that the 'desire' of the believe would reside in avoiding infinite torture in hell? To say it is, "unbelievable anyone would desire anyone to be tortured for an infinite amount of time," you are implying that their desire is for this outcome. I believe that anyone who holds the eternal punishment foundation would in fact desire the opposite for those they hope to save. Far from evil intent, I believe it comes from the pathos of love, or avoiding the stated outcome.

Unless God is eternally patient, he is not an eternal God. Unless he is infinitely merciful, he cannot claim love. Jesus said that the peacemaker is blessed. He also said to love enemies and do good to those who persecute you. For him to come back and do otherwise would make him the ultimate hypocrite. We will know him by his fruit. Faith becomes fact when we see the sign of Jonah. This is when the Son of God emerges from the belly of the fish. It starts with his prayer and willingness to repent and share the words he was given from the Father.

How? Actions and not simply words on a page. We must all see this sign. He defeats death.

Ultimately, Yahweh / Satan are aspects of our own mind. Self-righteousness (Yahweh) and the accusing conscience (Satan) are simply aspects of the mind that create our own heaven and hell. The kingdom is all around us. Freedom from the delusion / deception for the nations comes when we overcome the adversary (Yahweh) and accuser (Satan). We do this by overcoming the need.

a reply to: zardust
But...but...if there's no hell. No eternal torture and suffering and wailing and gnashing of teeth...then people might stop giving money to the church, and I won't be able to make the payments on my mansion, and my Cadillac Escalade, and go on luxurious vacations with the other pastors. Then what do I do?

Besides. People NEED the threat of hellfire and damnation to be good.

a reply to: zardust

Yes, but the age you live in now is the final age of counting time. The question everyone should be asking is could our understanding of Time since the EssiYAH have been corrupted to the point we beleive we are living in an age before the the Millennial Kingdom when in fact we are living in the final days of all counted Time (the Millennial Kingdom). Here's how it was done. The Catholic Church together with the ruling class Czars have overlain 2 complete copies of the original chronology and streched it to 2,000 years as apposed to 1,000 years. All they did was changed the names with the purpose of fulfilling Daniel 7:25. He seeks to change TIME and LAW. Is there ever been a better deception than this while you have been waiting it has been here all along and under your nose.

How do we know this is TRUE? You can read the books "History; Science or Fiction" by Anatoly Fomenko in which he details how they did it using the counting of Eclipses to mathematically erase 1,000 years since the EssiYAH's crucifixion. Also exposing the corruption in Carbon dating, and using many other tools of science to debunk the fictitious added 1,000 years.

To the question why? I think it explains itself. We know deep down there is no religious authority on earth that is correct. They are all coorupt because they are a business. So they must have another purpose. The religions of Gog and Magog are here to utterly destroy. Once they have done that their armies will simply come in and mop up.

One last thing for now. Revelation 13:18 has given you not only his number, but also his name in the Greek manuscript. It is XES. Keep in mind the Greek X makes the sound of a Z. Zeus dosen't even have the power to save himself let alone an entire blood type YAHshuWAH calls the Synagogue of Satan. What will happen when they find out there is no Heaven for them? Gog from the land of Og will not be happy they have been lied to.

a reply to: zardust

I always saw the "end of the Age" in Matt 24 to be a reference to the end of the dispensation, eternity has no end. I think hell exist eternally, but the occupants have to choose to be there by constantly rejecting grace.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Hell and torment is NOT forever. It is not for eternity. Hell and everything in it will be cast into the lake of fire and the lake of fire is clearly described in the bible. Destruction - it leave existance and is gone ... forever. So anyone who says people being tormented in Hell is forever is spreading lies and untruths because Hell is not forever but for a specific time.

a reply to: zardust

If you knew the truth of the physical aspects of creation then you would know that in order for their to be a heaven forever then their will be an eternal fire where you can get stuck. However i know the idea of that place is hard to belive but don't let your feelings get in the way of truth.

originally posted by: borntowatch
Yeah but nah
There is a good argument made for both sides.
Mine is based in the Garden where God doesnt allow humanity to eat from the tree of eternal life, so eternal life remains elusive for now.
I dont have an argument but I wont agree because i just dont know

Behold the nail, behold the hand

As far as I know the tree of life in the Garden is never referred to as the tree of eternal life, even with bad translation. The word that is most often translated as "eternal" in the Hebrew is Olam, its greek counterpart is Aion, as seen in the LXX. The word Olam speaks of "eternal" covenants like the Mosaic covenant, that was done away with. And "eternal hills" that won't last forever (let alone and ever).

I hope you'll read with an open heart as we explore further so you can make an informed argument.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Wow I'm convinced, thanks so much...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: zardust

I always saw the "end of the Age" in Matt 24 to be a reference to the end of the dispensation, eternity has no end. I think hell exist eternally, but the occupants have to choose to be there by constantly rejecting grace.

What we will find if we actually look at the passages with supposed hell in them that never is it spoken of as eternal. There is no word that should properly be translated as eternal as in without beginning or without end in the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures.

a reply to: zardust

You know, you raise some very important questions and I'll have to spend some time searching out the issue, but what comes to mind is the Second Death. When the Millenial reign of Christ is over, and Satan's final rebellion is neutralized, there will be a final resurrection of the dead in hell. Now, resurrection is the incarnation into an eternal body as opposed to a temporal body. The fact that the this resurrection will occur, and that its called the Second Death, implies that Hell will have permanent occupants throughout eternity.

Now, that does not mean that those occupants dont still have the chance to repent. What if those who are in hell now still have the option to repent by accepting Jesus' payment for sin. Perhaps when the final resurrection comes along, those who were to repent would be given the Resurrection of Life. What if the final resurrection is a deadline for the occupants of hell?

I'm still of the opinion that those who reject Christ in this life will continue to do so in the next, so I dont think any resident of hell will repent, but I do believe that God, in His perfect justice and love, does extend the offer.

a reply to: zardust

that was not an attempt to convince you just the standard cya so you can't say no body told you.

One point that may show you what i mean is look at what happened to our deepest holes we have drilled looking for oil.
Forget what science theorizes about what is inside the earth but in reality those drill bits that reached the furtherest all melted at levels that were not presumed by science to be hot. Now if our spirits exist then how will it feel to be stuck at that depth with no way to die or escape?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: zardust

If you knew the truth of the physical aspects of creation then you would know that in order for their to be a heaven forever then their will be an eternal fire where you can get stuck. However i know the idea of that place is hard to belive but don't let your feelings get in the way of truth.

The truth is this: before God made the garden of Eden, He made the Heavens and the Earth. No mention is made that He made Hell. Why would the Bible leave out something so important? That is your first hint. Our world is not God + Heaven on one side and Satan + Hell on the other, with humanity + Earth as a prey between them. It is an astonishingly simple hierarchy.

a reply to: zardust

Well this is a first for me. A person claiming to be a teacher of Greek and doesn't once bring up verb tenses and what that does to the verb in Greek. (Specifically the Aorist tense)

It's "Aionios" btw...



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