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Salvation, Election, Forever, Hell-----Refining, Ages, Priest-Kings, Healing

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posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 11:46 AM
a reply to: TheoFieldsGardener

Its a parable first and foremost. And it is actually speaking about the loss of the jewish homeland and temple worship, and watching the promises pass to the gentiles. Why Lazarus? Who is Lazarus? It could be Jesus' buddy that he raised, but very likely not because there is no evidence that it is the same person, no mention of 5 brothers for the brother of Lazarus of Bethany. And I doubt he would be using his kin as the example of a beggar, since it seems that Lazarus and his family had a home, and since his sister was Mary Migdal-ene (the pillar of the tribe of Benjamin, the head of the tribe, but lets stay on topic)

There is a more famous Lazarus that was being used in this parable. That Lazarus or Eleazar(the Hebrew version of Laz) was the servant of Abraham, who Abraham was going to make his heir when he thought he would not be able to sire any children in his old age. Eleazar was a gentile.

Now lets look at the story Jesus was telling. A rich man goes to "hell" (tell me where being rich is a sin worthy of eternal torture?) And he can speak with Abraham, (but didn't your pastor say that hell is the absence of God and the Saints, that those in heaven won't be able to remember their poor family members who are in burning agony for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever)

This rich man has 5 brothers this is referring to Judah, who had 5 brothers, the 6 children of Leah, the first wife of Jacob.

In another thread I was just writing about the comparisons between Leah and Rachel, or Hagar and Sarah, or Esau and Jacob, or Adam and Jesus. But these were the ones who should have the birthright. The older is the heir in that culture. I'm telling you this because in the chapter previous to Luke 16 where we find the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, we have the triplet of parables about the Son of Man coming to seek and save the lost.

The woman with coins drops everything to find her 1 lost coin
The man with 100 sheep and one is lost and he drops everything to go and find the one lost sheep
The man with 2 sons and one goes astray and he drops everything to go and find the lost son...

Oh no thats not how the story goes, nobody goes after the lost boy. Now to the people of that day they would have known exactly what Jesus was leaving out of the picture in the final parable. Part of the pleasure of getting the double portion of inheritance and taking over the position of the father was that if a family member was in trouble you the older son would have to go after the lost son. That was the job of the older brother, even to the point of giving his life to bring the younger back.

But what did the older brother do, beyond not go after the lost son? He complained that the father was having a party for him, AND refused to enter in, though the end of the parable leaves us hanging on whether he decides to join the party.

In that story, which was leading up to the Lazarus story, the elder son represents the Firstborn Nation, the chosen ones, who were supposed to be a nation of Priest-Kings to the other nations, leading the rest of humanity in to the kingdom of God. But what did they do? Jesus tells us pretty plainly, they kept them out. They make their converts a child of "hell".

In the same way that the story of the prodigal son is speaking of the Literal Israel as the older brother who fails his duty, the Rich man and Lazarus speaks of the loss of the firstborn status of the Jews, specifically Judah and his brothers, the 6 sons of Leah. Notice Jesus tells the story that the rich man asks for help but Abraham says they already have the law and the prophets, and if they don't believe them they won't believe a man who has risen from the dead.

I could follow up with chapter 17 of Luke that goes into the difference between the outward kingdom that the Jews were so proud of, and now the religious mind still is, with its multimillion dollar churches, fancy pastors and rock concerts (I mean worship bands)-- In chapter 18 Jesus speaks of the kingdom of heaven that is inside, and that the kingdom does not come by observation. This is the kingdom that the gentiles are a part of (and the Jews too actually--the 2 have been made into one branch).

These 3-4 chapters should be taken together and when they are, along with pretty much everything else Jesus says, especially parables, (because they were given to confound the wise), these are all speaking of the end of the Mosaic Age, and the beginning of the Messianic Age. That is the end of the age that is spoken of. Almost everything he says is speaking of the removal of the good things from the stingy hands of the religious elite, and giving them to all people. Oh yes there is weeping and gnashing of teeth by those dough boys when they see their spoils taken. And yes the fools tried to actually revolt against Rome and were burned in the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, aka Gehenna, which is "hell".

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:00 PM
a reply to: NOTurTypical

NO, tenses do not apply to adjectives or nouns. You keep saying see above and I see it. You are wrong. There are no tenses, which are called VERB TENSES, for adjectives or nouns.

Again there is no aorist tense of an adjective

There is no aorist tense of a noun

Just because you keep repeating yourself doesn't make it true. I'll repeat myself.


And even if you were right, which you aren't, you are committing an exegetical fallacy by trying to place too much emphasis on the VERB TENSE of aorist. Though you aren't really committing the fallacy because you can't read the friggin link you posted which has absolutely no mention of a VERB TENSE ever applying to an ADJECTIVE.

I know you are regurgitating something you've read or heard because I know where you're going with it, but even then you are wrong, because you are conflating 2 arguments against Universal Reconciliation.

AAAAAAND even if you were right in your confused argument you would find that you are wrong because the sense of Aionios is not actually even of a duration of time, but is "as pertaining to THE AGE". Where THE AGE is the messianic age, which is characterized by the nature of the Deity. Zoe Anion is the Life of the Age, that Age is the filled with the Life of God, as God is All in All. This is the state of perfect unity and harmony between God and Men. So when you have "Eternal Life" eternal isn't denoting time unending, but the quality of Life that is the Life of God.

But you don't even know what I'm talking about, and I've probably confused the whole post by responding to your failed argument.

I'll restate. VERB TENSES DO NOT APPLY TO ADJECTIVES OR NOUNS, which in this case we are referring to the Adjective Aionios, and the Noun Aion.

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:05 PM
a reply to: zardust

Here is a challenge. See if you find any evidence of our modern version of hell in the entire Old Testament. I'll save you the time. There is none. What we have is Sheol, which is the grave. It is the place the dead go.

Isaiah tells us about a new heaven and new earth. I believe it is the same New Jerusalem that John tells us about. That is unless you want to believe that there is an OT New Jerusalem and a NT New Jerusalem. Isaiah 65 --

Apostle John says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire and I take that to mean that everything in hell will also be cast into this lake of fire. By this I assume it means that hell will eventually be destroyed.

The author of Isaiah says that in the new earth and heaven there is a place of eternal fire with spirits of people.
I assume that this is the very same place that both authors describe as the lake of fire. That is unless you want to believe that we now have two fires.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Reading both authors accounts, in context, I am assuming that both are talking about the very same thing which is a new heaven and earth and a lake of fire with spirits of people in that lake of fire. The NT does not teach torment in hell forever simply because hell will not exist forever. John speaks about the beast and false prophet being in torment forever but not the human spirit. Isaiah leads me to believe that the identity of those in hell who were cast into the fire will always exist as identifiable. Nevertheless, both authors of OT and NT do show there is a ethereal fire which is assumed as non consuming. We actually don't understand this substance but appears to show the spirits as unconscious.

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:12 PM
a reply to: zardust

You can't be helped.

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:22 PM
a reply to: Seede

The new Heavens and the New Earth are part of the Restoration of All Things. Not some things. There is no room for hell when all has been restored. BTW I don't see anywhere in Isa 65 that speaks of a fiery eternal hell. Remember the Lake of Fire is in the presence of the lamb and his saints. In fact the Lake of Fire is the very presence of God. Yes it burns the carnal desires away, but what is left is pure gold. The word torment is Basanos which means to test a precious metal with a touchstone. It is an act of purification. Which is what fire is used for all throughout the bible as in a post above.

Also, I'm not saying everything is hunky dory in the OT, about supposed punishments and actions by God. There is some messed up stuff coming from the "mouth of God", aka the mind of man. "you have heard it said an eye for an eye, but I tell you..." The mind of man claims God said a lot of things, that Jesus refutes, namely his character. That is why he came against the pharisees so much because they had (very recently, ala the Babylonian Captivity) imported the doctrine of Eternal Torment. (the pharisees were babylonian control agents planted back in Israel to control the people, that is why they are called the Brood of Vipers, or sons of Satan)

What I'm asking for is a description that is anything like the modern conception of hell. Yes they believed in the Grave which is Sheol. But there is no warning that if you don't do x you will go to hell for eternity.

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:22 PM
I think many of us agree that spirits exist. I think we all agree that very hot places exist. So even if through your scriptorial searchings you have convinced your self hell is not real. Just know that if your spirit is put in a very hot place then hell is real at that point. I agree that in the end i believe it will not be that any are stuck in forever fire but going around pretending it is not possible you are fooling yourself. If those among us that spiritually believe they can defeat GOD do not turn from their ways and repent so they can be clensed then they will be the true creators of ever lasting punishment. Do not force the mans hand by trying to appear smart while ignoring the truth.

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 12:30 PM
a reply to: NOTurTypical

LOL seriously? You're going to come on here post some nonsense that is unverifiable, which I refute with your own supposed evidence. When you have something of substance to add please do, because I would like to know if I'm wrong, but so far all you've added is completely wrong.

Can you please point out from the link to the page that is titled "Understanding Verb Tenses" where it speaks of those verb tenses applying to an adjective? Thats all I'm asking, because I read that page quite a few times to make sure wasn't mistaken, and also spent a few hours searching for any mention anywhere on the internet about the aorist tense applying to an adjective. You want to know how much I turned up? NONE. Not even from hack websites. None of the scholarly websites, none of the Lexicons.

Good Laaawd

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 01:40 PM
a reply to: zardust

Yeah, you got it all figured out on your own with no formal education in Greek and you seem to have nailed something down that Greek translators and Lexicographers have totally failed at since the 7th century BC when the LXX was translated from Hebrew.

edit on 23-12-2014 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 02:17 PM
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Greek is one of the most precise and rigid languages in human history.
Latin is, for describing physical things.

Greek is a good language for things best described figuratively.

Your ignorance of languages is always very staggering to me, especially in light of how you present yourself as some sort of authority on the subject.

Back to your comments to zardust on the Greek words that he mentioned, it is an adjective and not a particular "tense" of a verb.

Also, the "Aorist" tense does not mean something that doesn't end, but describes something that is being done, rather than a completed action or something that hasn't happened yet.

edit on 23-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 02:20 PM
The man with the 5 brothers is Chiapas which makes the story even more adversarial with the Pharisee/Sadducee. He needed to show that we would keep the Moses promise of the Serpent being raised up. Mary Magellan's brother Lazarus was that opportunity. He had spoken to the House of YAHshurun (Israel) through scripture they would receive later. He had ridden the donkey into Jerusalem for the Jews and now he needed to show he had the power to raise so the unbelieving Sadducee could see he fulfilled the scripture. If it isn't Lazarus then prey tell how and who else did he raise that would fulfill that.

a reply to: zardust

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 02:44 PM
a reply to: jmdewey60

Key word.. "one of".

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 02:48 PM

originally posted by: jmdewey60
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Greek is one of the most precise and rigid languages in human history.

Also, the "Aorist" tense does not mean something that doesn't end, but describes something that is being done, rather than a completed action or something that hasn't happened yet.

"The Aorist Tense This tense is hardly a tense at all. It describes indefinite or undefined action. The word aoristos derives from an alpha privative (ie. negation) and the verb horizô (meaning "to bound") thus meaning "without boundaries".

The word aorist itself is self-explainatory:

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 04:21 PM
I have chair
I am chair
I will chair

There you go…. that proves nouns have tense…therefore to give is to receive to receive is to give..what is giving… it is receiving that which is given when it is received by the giving.All things have direction to go down you must go up to go up you must go down(don’t try this at home) only then will all things be seen clearly when up is down and down is up.

To err is human and humans are errors.The involution of the convolution is a revolution with a solution.The eternal is time working in reverse where all things old will be new when they have become old as the are new.The seed must be sown by the the seed that is sown to reap which has been reaped by that which was sown.

Hell is the heaven of those whose hell was heaven when their hell will be heaven.Satan is the God of the God whose Satan will be the God of Satan who was.The proline orthogonal relativity is amassed by the coefficient of the sum of it’s ratio of Phi quantum Pi squared to the 10th power making all things equal to the triangular tessellation repidigits of Satan Ruach Ha-Kodack codon.

seek, find,inept,regurgitate.

edit on 23-12-2014 by Rex282 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 06:03 PM
a reply to: NOTurTypical

It describes indefinite or undefined action.
A definite thing would be something that was completed in the past.
The Aorist is something that can happen at any time, such as, "whenever I get around to it, I will post a comment on the forum".
There is no specific time when I will post it, and I could be talking about how I posted in the past, or I could be talking about how I will be posting sometime in the future.

It does not mean that I will be posting forever.
edit on 23-12-2014 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 23 2014 @ 07:25 PM
a reply to: jmdewey60

Definite also means "defined", or if it was a definite time you could say "I will post here at 9pm on Saturday".

posted on Dec, 24 2014 @ 04:03 AM
a reply to: Rex282

Thats soooooooo deep man


posted on Dec, 24 2014 @ 05:00 AM
a reply to: deadeyedick

Can God be hurt by fire? "The Lord is the Spirit" I don't believe that you have a spirit, any different than the One Spirit. That is the breathe of Life, which btw is the meaning of Aionios actually. The Life of God, which is God that is the source of all that is. It all flows from Him.

I've never said that hell isn't real. I have said that man's modern conception of it is false.

Is there a place of suffering? Yes

Is there a place where people weep and gnash their teeth? Yes

Is there a time when the fire of God, aka His presence, aka Zoe Aionion, covers you and burns through all of your fear, shame, pride, false thinking, hurts? YES

Now the place of suffering isn't some future dimension of God-less-ness, It is now. The religious mind, or the mind of the world. The one of war, suffering, famine, abuse. This "world" is where satan rules, where the adversary the prince of the power of the air(your mind/imaginations) rules. People weep and gnash their teeth all day long in this world.

That is why Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world", "the kingdom of heaven is at hand", "the kingdom of heaven is inside you".

The religious mind is what has created a violent and vengeful god who would torture his children for all of eternity (trillion, upon trillions upon trillions of millennia, doesn't even begin to count "eternity")

I'm not pretending anything friend. And I'm not fooling myself. I've seen the glory of the Risen Lord, and let me tell you that no one can not bend their knee and praise (a re-union, the marriage of the lamb). No person can withstand the Fire of God, which is pure LOVE. The dross cannot withstand the flame anymore than the hay and stubble can remain defiant to a raging fire.

I am not trying to appear smart. I'm trying to give a reasoned argument against the most vile of doctrines that blaspheme the goodness of God. Maybe I should just utter plattitudes that are unsubstantiated and inane ramblings? Would that be better?


posted on Dec, 24 2014 @ 10:46 AM
a reply to: zardust

What I'm asking for is a description that is anything like the modern conception of hell. Yes they believed in the Grave which is Sheol. But there is no warning that if you don't do x you will go to hell for eternity.

What you are asking for is not simple to answer. The Hebrews religion has evolved and is still evolving, So to be somewhat clear let us assume the Orthodox Judaic thought and not get caught up in the reformed or conservative branches of modern day rabbinic Judaism. In Orthodoxy there are several main rabbinic authorities and they do not all agree on interpretation of Torah or Tenach. It can get quite confusing especially if you want to quote a belief source in their afterlife.

Orthodoxy calls hell the neither world. You will not find the Greek understanding of hell in the mindset of a Jew. According to Nahmanides, as each person dies they are subjected to a judgment of one of three divisions. Righteous will go directly to Gan Eden. The wicked will go to Gehenna. The intermediates will go to a place of tranquility.

The intermediates who enter the gate of tranquility are punished for not more than twelve months and then released to Dumah who is the guardian of the dead. Punishment is meted out according to each individuals sins. When the punishment period is over the person is then allowed to join the estate of the righteous but at a lower or lesser grade of bliss.

The wicked who have been unworthy are consumed with the ethereal fire and their ashes spread under the feet of the righteous (so to speak). This is not clear at all in the doctrine of Nahmanides and is really confusing when you study the other authorities in rabbinic Judaic philosophy. I won't get into resurrection because then you will simply throw the book away as a lost cause.

So to answer your challenge. No, there is nothing clear in the Hebrew bible concerning hell simply because hell was not in their mindset except as a place for punishment and release. The unforgiven were placed in the ethereal fire as described in Isaiah 66 and totally destroyed. Gehenna was not a place of everlasting torment but was either punishment and release or annihilation according to one source only. Other rabbis do not agree but Nahmanides is accepted as the foremost authority.

The Greek hell and the Hebrew Gehinnon are believed to be in the neither world or Sheol which is located as chambers in this earth. Don't be confused with upper and lower Gan Eden because that also is quite confusing. Actually Jesus' doctrine is more easily understood. Anyway excuse me for rambling on.

posted on Dec, 24 2014 @ 11:18 AM
a reply to: zardust

Hey now deeerrrrp to you lol i can understand that

I do not disagree with much of what you are saying.

However my knowledge will not allow me to buy in to everything you are putting down.

Like i said there is a way to create eternal torture in extreme fire of your soul or spirit whatever you want to call it.

It is not wise to dismiss it in the minds of those who may believe you and then end up there cause of your words.

posted on Dec, 24 2014 @ 05:55 PM
a reply to: zardust

Thanks ZD,

You're doing a good job however please start another thread from your title.All of this hell talk is damn boring.It has been well established hell is a doctrine that infects and perverts every part of the mind.Thank the creator God for the lake of fire.

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