The Nature of Man

Friends this is not a message that is going to give you that warm happy feeling. Its not a message thats going to entertain you intellectually. It is simply a message of truth. Remember, Truth is not always something we are going to be happy to hear. However truth is the only thing from which we can form knowledge.

Psalm 51:5

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Humans come into world with a strong desire to sin. The desire however is not learned it is simply part of each individuals essence(Wiki: In philosophy, essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an entity or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and without which it loses its identity). Without this desire to sin a person loses who they are. If any of us were devoid of the ability to sin we would no longer be the people we are at this moment. We would lose our identity.

Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

On a daily basis people do things we know to be ethically wrong. Adultery. Envy. Pride. Lies. Drug addiction.

"The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary; men alone are quite capable of every wickedness. "

-Joseph Conrad
I love the quote above because it makes a good point about man. We don't need God to be able to preform any act of wickedness. Thats inside who we are from birth. We are all sick.

Luke 14:26

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Sin is very real friend and it has its own presence. The closer I come to God the more I feel its presence in people around me and myself. I do in some aspect hate part of everyone I know. I can't say I don't hate that person because the Truth is I do hate who people are and who I am. I hate that we are broken and that we don't care about that brokenness as much as we should.

John 12:25

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I hate my life simply because of the choices that I make here. Choices I make simply because its who I am. I don't like being the way that I am, but I know that those actions I regret are part of me and that given the choice I would chose to do them multiple times even though I know they are wrong.

Once a person becomes aware of this nature inside of people it becomes blatantly obvious as to the corruption within our flesh. Those of you who recognize this within yourself will begin to see your need for a spiritual cleansing. The only time you will ever feel clean is when you take shelter in Christ. Sin is something we are fighting its a war and many of you are asleep in the trenches. Wake up. Realize a war is being fought. I do have some good news for you though. The war has been won. Its hard to remember that all the time, but it has. We can be free of that part of our nature all we have to do is believe.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

So I need to hate my self for salvation?
I don't like the sound of that.
I like don't worry be happy better

a reply to: Sremmos80

Its not about hating ones self for salvation. Its the realization that salvation does come from our actions. Realizing what we are is what will make a person hate themself. That comes from an understanding of our nature.

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

The Law and Sin

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Ugh... You and everyone else needs to ditch the Pharisee...

Seriously

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Doesn't sound to natural to hate ones self.
It's kinda an issue we have found out actually.

John 12:25

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb I believe sin is an evil concept. For without the idea of an inevitable pulling towards the dark side we can trust each other easily. And with trust you will see the true nature of man. And it is so beautiful, so far from evil.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Humans come into world with a strong desire to sin.

Funny. Back in the day, I never saw many 2 year old at the strip clubs. This is what's wrong with humans and religion in general. We think we have to hate ourselves, so we can do some kind of penance for just being born. We are not born evil. Each person makes their own decisions and should be judged as individuals, not lumped together. If you have to teach someone to hate themselves before you can "save" them, there is something seriously wrong with your philosophy.

In my various threads relating to the Eden story, I was describing the original sin in terms of "setting their will against God's, making their own choice instead of accepting his choice, wanting their own way".
That makes it easier to see how it can be universal.
Augustine used the example of demanding babies, how they set their own wills against the will of their parents.

The story of Cain illustrates how this leads on bad choices, and bad behaviour.

As I remarked in "Original Sin Revisited";

There is no getting away from the fact that something has gone wrong with the human race.
The world we see around us tells us that something is not right, and the kind of things that are wrong have been wrong all through human history.
The current state of the world is clearly the result of a long succession of wrong human choices.

We are animal. There is no such thing as sin, and never was; it's religions poor attempt to rationalize behavior that doesn't fit the good/evil narrative.

Let's look at sexual behavior. For a young man, when he's in his sexual prime, his mind is on sex. That's not Satan. It's not sin. It's absolutely normal and healthy to have a sex drive when you're a young man, just as it's natural to want to procreate because your body is telling you it's time. These are natural urges. They have nothing to do with evil/sin. Satan is not 'tempting' you. Our unconscious mind and the hormones are doing what they do, naturally. Surpressing these instincts is UNNATURAL, denying them and refuting them is just plain nonsense.

We are what we are. Animals. It's why we make borders and protect them. It's why cultures are always sexualized in some way or another. It's why we go to wars to protect our interests. Etc.

You will never, EVER find the truth about man and our nature and our behaviors by looking to the Bible for answers, unless you want lies and more confusement that explain virtually nothing.

The real TRUTH of the matter is that none of you people know any real truth about our nature and why we are alive.

You are totally wrong I'm afraid. People are taught and learn to sin, they are not born with it. How about a handicapped boy stuck in a wheelchair his whole life? Is he a sinner too? Even though he's never done anyone else wrong?

This self-defecation truly is sad. I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to bring joy and love? Seems to me it actually brings self-loathing and hate for others, even if "only a part of them". If you don't love yourself fully then how can you love anyone else in the same way?

Surely you see what's wrong with this worldview? It is unhealthy and is the thing that keeps you "sick". No, you weren't born sick, you caught the sickness from religion.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Your post is not "Truth". It's not even truth. It's superstition, steeped in shame and guilt. We are born beautiful and innocent with only the desire to survive.

There is no such thing as "sin". It's just judgment that people throw around.

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

If a person hates their life, why would they WANT to keep it eternally? Makes absolutely NO sense!

I hate my life simply because of the choices that I make here. Choices I make simply because its who I am. I don't like being the way that I am, but I know that those actions I regret are part of me and that given the choice I would chose to do them multiple times even though I know they are wrong.

That is a sick, warped and twisted way to live. I'm so sorry you feel that way about yourself. There's another choice out there... You don't have to hate yourself and be miserable...

What I hate is how religion does this to beautiful, deserving and worthy people...

Jesus never taught self love. Jesus never taught self forgiveness. Christianity thrives on self hatred, guilt and shame.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Its not about hating ones self for salvation. Its the realization that salvation does come from our actions. Realizing what we are is what will make a person hate themself. That comes from an understanding of our nature.

No, that is exactly what you are saying. the need for jesus arises from an unrelenting hatred/despair of our basic nature, so you need to convince us to hate ourselves before we convert. from there its a short step to selling our souls for a little internal comfort.

you spreading a terrible message of hatred and humiliation.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Very on topic. Thanks for the input.

a reply to: Akragon

??? I just don't even understand your post ....

a reply to: Akragon

??? I just don't even understand your post ....

a reply to: Sremmos80

I believe your missing the point. The point of this thread is not that I choose to hate myself. I have simply become aware of something within me that I do hate, and that I want gone. I am also aware of the samething being present in every human I meet. Looking at myself and them that way allows me to love them unconditionally. I know what I am, and I am no better than Jeffery Dahmer or Hitler. So who am I to judge anyone? I hate that the sin in the person, but I love the soul. There is only one who will judge, and thanks be to God because we are blessed with his amazing grace.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Its quite simple really...

Even though you use the gospels... the ideas you use in your writing come from Paul...

It might not be clear to everyone, but its crystal to me

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

So who am I to judge anyone?

K.I.S.S, just say this, no need for all this "you need to hate what you are" to get there.
I can be happy with who I am and still not judge the people I meet.