Detroit burger joint shows it’s possible to pay workers $15 an hour and still make money

originally posted by: Grovit
your pay should reflect your skills. thats the gist of what i said but go ahead and twist it around

I completely agree, people should get paid based on how hard their job is and how well they do it. On the first page you said "its all about the poor poor burger flipper", as if that's all the person is, a lousy burger flipper who doesn't deserve a wage high enough to get by day to day. Just because a person flips burgers or cleans toilets doesn't mean they deserve to get paid slave wages. As someone else in this thread mentioned, those jobs need to get done one way or another, and if people refused to do them, you wouldn't be so quick to generalize all people working in those "easy" jobs.

originally posted by: Bilk22
The only effect of raising the minimum wage will have, especially if it's doubled, will be to create inflation. Business owners aren't stupid or foolish. They will pass the costs on to the consumer. Who eats at McD's? People who earn minimum wage. They will incur higher costs. Same with counter workers in all businesses. They may make a few more bucks, but will also pay more. There's no winning. Only treading water.

Maybe so, but what you and others fail to realize is that the push for higher wages in low skilled positions arises from the fact that inflation is happening and has been happening for ages . The only thing that has not been keeping up with inflation is wages and now it's getting to the point of devouring the already choking economy. Between inflation and outsourcing of labor, the workers of this country are getting ground down from the bottom up, lower skill workers are feeling the brunt, but higher skilled workers aren't fairing so well and will find it worse and worse for them as well. After all who pays for all the tradesmen, who pay for doctors, lawyers and higher skill workers?

The whole economy is dying and it's only going to get worse. Raising minimum wages may not be a long term answer, but doing nothing will just speed up the rot. Do nothing and eventually the lower skilled workers will be gone, the mid skilled workers like tradesmen will be gone, the higher skilled workers like doctors, will be gone, the whole of the middle class will be ground away and then their will only be the destitute and the godly rich.

You likened raising wages to treading water, but what happens when you don't even try to tread water? You drown.

And funny enough the rich never get theirs. After all the quantitative easing we payed to the banks and the fat cats added far more to inflation and did more to devalue the currency then paying lower skilled workers more money. But, yeah feck it their rich right and who cares about the those bottom feeding poor right?

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

originally posted by: Grovit
your pay should reflect your skills. thats the gist of what i said but go ahead and twist it around

I completely agree, people should get paid based on how hard their job is and how well they do it. On the first page you said "its all about the poor poor burger flipper", as if that's all the person is, a lousy burger flipper who doesn't deserve a wage high enough to get by day to day. .

well, if they flip burgers then thats what they are.
i run a cnc...im a machinist. thats not a knock
or we could call them meat patty engineers if it makes you feel better.

i just dont think pressing a button on a grill warrants 15 an hour.
if it does then the guys that make 15 at their skilled trade need to make 30.
paying a non skilled worker that much is a slap in the face to people that went out an acquired skills and/or degrees.

if they dont make enough flipping burgers then they should find other work.
or moonlight at the competition

i think people, and young people just starting out should be encouraged to go to school and/or learn some skills.
where is that going to come from if they can dump fries fresh out of school for $15 an hour?
its going to turn this country into friggin idiocracy.

no way a no skill worker that is barely 18 should make as much or almost as much as a tradesman that has been working for longer than that guy has been alive.



people entering the work force these days are already from the entitlement generation.
what incentive where there be for them to do well if they can make it flippin burgers...

i think its a bad idea

originally posted by: jlafleur02

originally posted by: Grovit
a reply to: Shamrock6

thats how i feel too but i like to you the skilled trades examples.

there are guys on the melt deck making $17 an hour.
its 120 degrees up there on a good day. the guys in the melt work no less than 10 hours.
it is bust ass work and there is zero room for error.
their measurements have to be spot on to get the chemistry right.

if theyre pouring ductile for example they need the right amount of mag. too much and no good. not enough and no good. throw it in too early and no good. too late and no good.
they might pour 12 castings out of 1 ladle. when i was running chemistry in the lab i had to scrap entire ladles before. 12 castings at 10 grand each.
costs the company money and it causes their customers not to get their quality product on time.

they have to melt and pour again. then they have to sit for a couple days so they shake out 3 days late. it trickles down to the customer....im talking windmill parts. blocks for natural gas pipelines. electro motor boxes for trains.
their mistake effects all that.

make the wrong mistake up on the melt and people get hurt or die. its happened before.
throw wet pig into the furnace and it shoots out like a bullet only it weighs 80 pounds...

i dont see how a a person new to the work force dumping fries and making nuggets deserves even close to the pay the melt guys get...
or teachers....its a joke and it is a slap in the face

Maybe the melt guy is underpaid. If you raise the fry guys pay then the melt guy will get a fry job. Then the owners of the melt shop will have to offer a higher wage to attract new employees for the melt job. did you ever think of that

Then a lot of companies might just close up shop too, either sell out or retire. There's a lot of stress to running a business and if the money isn't worth it, close up and go to work for someone else.

Too many people here say that company owners shouldn't be so greedy. Well, they have to have some incentive to bust their a$$ day and night for no reward, sometimes for years, no vacations etc., while they build their companies up. They didn't go into business to just barely break even.

I believe it was New Jersey, I will check, raised minimum wage and the cost of living rose significantly. That means welfare and food stamps need more of your tax dollars to take care of themselves and their families.

I actually see a lot of businesses possibly closing their doors this coming Jan-Mar with poor sales, Obamacare and the possibility of increased wages. They can't afford to stay open anymore.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist

originally posted by: DenyTreason
Very simple stuff. Its almost like the finacially set folks want to see the average American struggle and our country remain down.

Ya, 3c0nomix be simple. U ppl make me lolz.

Economics is about as 'simple' as nano-engineering.

If we double the minimum wage to $15/hour, it will be a matter of months before every dollar is worth about half as much as it was before.

We have a min wage that's over double the US wage downunder and our dollar is currently 0.85 cents and regularly fluctuates to to above 0.95 cents.

This part is pretty simple. Let's say I currently make $15/hour doing skilled labor (I will not waste time arguing with someone who denies the distinction between skilled and unskilled labor). If unskilled laborers start making what I make now, you can be damn sure that everyone doing my job will immediately demand $30/hour so that we are paid a fair wage. The guy above me who currently makes $25/hour will demand $50/hour, and so on.

Well so what? In a country with more millionaires & billionaires than anywhere else in the world, isn't it about time the wealth was shared around more evenly?

In response to doubling everyone's wages, businesses will be forced to raise prices or close their doors, as well as lay off employees. It will be incremental at first, but the end result is that a $3 loaf of bread will cost at least $6. Things will be no more affordable for anyone, and the dollar will have taken a serious blow.

I disagree. I think it would allow people to have more disposable income, meaning more customers to to businesses. Actually resulting in new businesses opening up (not closing down), which would actually stimulate local economies and prices would remain reasonable, because these new businesses would be competing with each other. Happy days for everyone!

A loaf of bread in Australia is also about $3 (not $6). Also, as I've pointed out in another thread a big mac in Australia is the exact same price as that of the US, even though we pay McDonalds employees over double what they pay in the US and there still turning a good profit. We have a very healthy economy, it hasn't resulted in Armageddon, like the wealthy elite would have you believe.

Why are people ignoring these established facts and just posting away with how paying a person a wage they can actually survive off will result in chaos in the streets and these horror stories of a major economic crash. When the facts actually indicate the exact opposite?

a reply to: Grovit

well, if they flip burgers then thats what they are.
i run a cnc...im a machinist. thats not a knock
or we could call them meat patty engineers if it makes you feel better.

i just dont think pressing a button on a grill warrants 15 an hour.
if it does then the guys that make 15 at their skilled trade need to make 30.

I see you've totally missed my point once again. The point is you're judging them for what they do, not viewing them as human beings. And if you're getting paid $15 an hour for a skilled trade then clearly something is wrong. I'm not saying that the only people who need to get paid more are the lowest income earners, I'm saying that wages overall need to be increased, and that we should use the lowest paying jobs as the baseline for all other jobs.

No one with a full time job should have to worry about where their next meal is going to come from or where they are going to find their next credit loan. Sure they shouldn't be able to afford an awesome car or great food, but they should be fed and sheltered and have some basic luxuries that most people are expected to have in 1st world nations. Just because they have a phone and a television doesn't make them not poor.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
We have a min wage that's over double the US wage downunder and our dollar is currently 0.85 cents and regularly fluctuates to to above 0.95 cents.

You are comparing koalas to opossums.

I disagree. I think it would allow people to have more disposable income, meaning more customers to to businesses. Actually resulting in new businesses opening up (not closing down), which would actually stimulate local economies and prices would remain reasonable, because these new businesses would be competing with each other. Happy days for everyone!

Who taught you economics? Pollyanna??

How in the world would employers have more income after doubling every worker's salary? Sure, employees would have more disposable income...that is until prices for everything double -- a change retailers and manufacturers would be forced to make just to stay profitable.

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I'm saying that wages overall need to be increased, and that we should use the lowest paying jobs as the baseline for all other jobs.

Ok. Increase the lowest wages and increase higher level wages accordingly. Costs for goods and service go up. Prices for goods and services go up. Now those in the lowest paying jobs are in a different boat?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I'm saying that wages overall need to be increased, and that we should use the lowest paying jobs as the baseline for all other jobs.

Ok. Increase the lowest wages and increase higher level wages accordingly. Costs for goods and service go up. Prices for goods and services go up. Now those in the lowest paying jobs are in a different boat?

Yes that's a valid point, I should have been more specific. It would have to be balanced out by decreasing the wages of some occupations, some jobs pay way too much. Usually most of the business profits go to the shareholders, so in order to pay employees more without increasing the cost of prices, the people at the top need to take a hit. Which is the reason why I say that minimum wages should be voluntary and not mandatory. Obviously if we just forced all businesses to pay their employees more it would not work.

“I’m taking less money personally,” Parker said. “My question is, how much do we have to make? How big of a pile of money do CEOs have to sit on?”

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

i agree to all that.
there are some skilled trades that pay 15 an hour. especially if you are early in to your career.
yes, no human should have to worry about meals and credit but this is the real world.
people need to work for what they have and work to get ahead.

i dont see how raising the wage of the lowest skilled jobs there are to 15 an hour will give anyone any incentive to go to school or learn a trade.
can you?
why would any 18 year old fresh out of school bother with tech school or 4 years of school loans to maybe wind up working at a fast food spot after getting out of college anyway?
why bother if they can make 15 bones right out of the gate?

and if it will work like people say, then everyone will get raises accordingly and the price of everything will go up and those same low skill workers will still be on the bottom end of everything.

and i know having a flat screen and an iphone does not mean you are not poor.
it just gets old hearing about these workers that have it so bad, yet not bad enough to where they cant get the new iphone 6. not too bad where they buy buy buy...

people need to be encouraged to live within their means, manage money better, and climb away from burger flipping jobs.
those jobs are for teenagers, part timers that need a few extra bucks, and yes, the felons that cant get work anywhere else.

in a perfect fantasy world everyone will make great money no matter what their job is and never have to worry about anything.
it just does not work like that.

and do you not think that other jobs and industries that pay people the same or even less for much harder work are going to lose people?
yeah, some people hate food service and wont do it but others go where the money is.

someone mentioned late shift hotel toll booth operators and something else.
i can think of lots of jobs that do not pay 15 an hour and requite more skill and are harder than mcdonalds.
those jobs will be vacated in a hurry if people can rush to mcdonalds and make that kind of money.

then what?

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder

It would have to be balanced out by decreasing the wages of some occupations, some jobs pay way too much.

and who gets to decide which jobs pay way too much?
you
so what. we are going to take money away from tradesman and people with degrees cause they pay too much and just hand it over to the lowest skilled workers?
yeah, thats brilliant...

all that is a much better idea than people actually trying to better for themselves by going to school or learning a trade..
unreal.

originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
We have a min wage that's over double the US wage downunder and our dollar is currently 0.85 cents and regularly fluctuates to to above 0.95 cents.

I disagree. I think it would allow people to have more disposable income, meaning more customers to to businesses. Actually resulting in new businesses opening up (not closing down), which would actually stimulate local economies and prices would remain reasonable, because these new businesses would be competing with each other. Happy days for everyone!

Who taught you economics? Pollyanna??

I don't know anything about economics. I'm simply pointing out that its worked really well here and don't understand what makes the US so different. The only possible explanation I can come up with is that the wealthy elite are hoarding the wealth like squeals hoarding nuts for winter, instead of distributing the wealth more evenly and stimulating the economy.

How in the world would employers have more income after doubling every worker's salary? Sure, employees would have more disposable income...that is until prices for everything double -- a change retailers and manufacturers would be forced to make just to stay profitable.

I'm not saying to just double the wage of every person on minimum wage overnight, but surely they could raise the minimum wage by a few dollars at a time over a few years?

People also keep saying everything would double. But I don't see any examples of products being ridiculously over priced to the point where people can't afford them anywhere in the world that has a high minimum wage. Where's a case example?

a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Usually most of the business profits go to the shareholders, so in order to pay employees more without increasing the cost of prices, the people at the top need to take a hit.

Which would decrease incentive to invest in that business, which would stifle growth.

Which is the reason why I say that minimum wages should be voluntary and not mandatory.

No legal minimum wage? That's different. So your point is that wages should be based on the market. Higher demand for a given position will drive wages for that position. Makes sense.

A rise in min wage to $15 would give 30-40 million Americans more income BUT millions would lose jobs because of it. Everyone would pay a lot more for everything.

Corporations will not lose profits over the good of the people...Period, To expect otherwise is naive.

Corporations will automate (no need for people), Hire less (more unemployment), reduce benefits(workers will have to pay for benefits from net proceeds of higher income), pay more for everything as well.

The argument that more people having higher incomes will allow them to buy more is a farce because of the above referenced.

In the real world its already happening, google seattle min wage 15. Everything Ive stated above is reference in the real world.

Increase min wage incrementally yes. Double it all at once equals a nightmare to add to the other hightmares of Obamacare, higher food prices, and higher cost due to excessive govt regulations.

In a perfect world, the concept of raising minimum wage from $8.00 to $15.00 is a feasible, maybe logical option.

In our world, where we live, in the USA.... This is Not an option. Raising the bar to $15.00 will yes, raise some wages to that level. But it will also force many restaurant owners to fire a lot of people and hire and pay illegals under the table... for maybe $5.00 an hour.

That's the reality of what will happen. How do I know? Because it's already happening. Many restaurant workers today are illegals making less than minimum now. Raising the minimum to $15.00 will have no effect.

If people want to 'raise the standard of living for the oppressed restaurant worker'... this is the area they need to focus on. But they won't because it's messy and raising the minimum is a nice way for them to feel good and for them to say that "we've improved the plight of.... ", when in reality this would not be the case overall.

Double wages means double taxes, oh sorry higher tax bracket more than double wages.

Chicago lol, # that place, I can got to crenshaw and get mugged in warm weather.

a reply to: Shamrock6

From what I have read here it is clear that ALL wages should be raised.

a reply to: spite

That'd be great. Except we'd have to fund it all somehow

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: tothetenthpower

Either way, legit numbers or bad numbers, I have a hard time supporting somebody who flips burgers making $15 an hour. Unskilled labor is just that: unskilled. Pay isn't going to go up across the board. Why should somebody who runs a register at my closest gas station make a couple grand less than a teacher? That blows my mind.

Lets see you take a job that pays minimum wage where you have a good chance of getting a gun stuck in your face. In many places these people should be getting combat pay because they face more of a chance of getting killed then the people who serve in the military.

Okay, so because they took a job turning gas pumps on they should get well paid? Sounds good. Your basic private in the military makes about $1500 a month. That works out to about $9.50 an hour, provided they only work 40 hours a week. Obviously if they work over 40 hours, their rate of pay goes down. So, since these people work jobs that are just as dangerous as the military, but require so much less training, we can pay them accordingly, right?

a reply to: prisoneronashipoffools

And the private sector is driven by skills and what you deliver for the the bottom line. So it's okay for the public sector to not get paid more, because taxes! But private sector? Oh no, we need to artificially inflate your worth so you can have a new flat screen!

Seems legit.