Tired Of The Propaganda - "Support The Troops"

a reply to: Bedlam

I originally tried to make this about propaganda, failed, and have not done the best in defending my position. I'll agree.

I had more typed but they still really don't reflect what I was trying to say and have still failed to do. Whatever.

Anyway, my words are there, for better of for worse. At least people are talking about it. It's been a mostly civil thread.

I, (state name of enlistee), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I've said that 3 times. A few things I've taken away from it that I find important:

"Support and defend the constitution"

"Against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

"I will obey all orders of the President of the United States"

And the kicker..."and the orders of the officers appointed over me"

I'm not going to say that your wrong. 12+ years in and everyday I question the orders that I have to follow. But I do that internally, because doing so externally would violate the "I will obey all orders" part. But, this is how you have good order and discipline in a military force. You do as your told by your chain of command, unless there are legal or severe moral issues against it. Then, you take the appropriate measures to defend yourself and the actions you took against said issue, whatever it may be.

The vast majority of the military are regular, everyday people who signed up to fight for a cause. The intent is to do good, and defend our country. To defend your right to free speech. The allegations that have been made about why one shouldn't support our troops aren't far fetched by anyone capable and willing enough to do some digging. But ultimately, I have no proof of anything, and neither does anyone else on this board. It's mostly all internet based opinions, youtube videos, and speculative assumptions. (Key word there...mostly). So who are we to rise up against our chain of command, against our government and proclaim their injustices? We're can't.

If I were to go through my chain of command and tell them of how the military industrial complex fuels wars oversees so American CEO's around the country can line their pockets, I'd be sent to the hospital for a mental health checkup and promptly discharged. Because that's not good order and discipline. I certainly don't have the time and resources to do legitimate, independant research that could prove, in a court of law, that anything we do is criminal.

You know who does have that kind of time? Our civilian brothers and sisters. Starting at the community levels, and working their way up. Doing research and finding conclusive data to support such claims. Raising awarness throughout the communities. Turning off your televisions and taking the marketing abilities away from main stream media. Stop buying anything that's advertsised on television, on any billboard, or in any newspaper or magazine. Stop using gas and oil, demand alternative fuels. Take the money from their pockets, and put your money where your mouth is. There are ways...but are any of you prepared to take the luxury and comfort out of your lives? Are you prepared to go back into the stone age and live by a campfire through cold winters for years and years? Could you go without your cell phone or computer? Could you do it? Because that's what it's going to take. Logging onto an online forum and b!tching about how you hate supporting our troops isn't the answer, though there certainly is a small number of people who support your endeavor.

I'm not trying to bash you, or anyone who feels that way. And I'm certainly not trying to tell you what's what. I'm just saying, we do what we do out of an obligation to committment towards our country's constitution that gives us all freedom. If you're upset because of one day on the calander when the nation comes together to say thank you to all our Veterans, then I think you have your frustrations pointed in the wrong direction and your focus misplaced. There is much more that can be done to better your cause.

originally posted by: Irishhaf
Thank you for exercising your rights that I've helped protect for the last 17 years.

How did you protect his rights?

I know for a fact you ain't done squat for me, mate. Nor for thousands of innocent victims of US terrorist policy.

If I could offer a non-US perspective on supporting the troops. Here we have armistice day which is intended as a mark of respect for soldiers who died in the first world war and later conflicts. However it has to a significant extend been taken over as a recruitment vehicle for the armed forces. In the weeks running up the 11th it would be career suicide for any public figure to appear without a poppy.
I am happy to respect members of the armed forces on the same basis as anyone else if they are deserving of it. Some guys i know in the forces genuinely believe in what they are doing, others are just in as they didn't get the grades for catering college. I don't believe they all deserve respect just because they choose to wear a uniform.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
I truly did not know today was Vets day as I don't pay attention to holidays.

That's an unbelievable statement to me.

It's that kind of attitude that I get pissed off when pigs show it, ...

So police are all 'pigs' and veterans all aren't worthy of respect (but you whine when it seems to you that you aren't getting respect) and you attempted to school a moderator on how to post. Try some self introspection.

Veterans - thank you for signing up and for volunteering to protect us and our country. I understand that, even in peacetime, just the fact that you are willing to do this is a deterrent to enemies of the USA. I owe my freedom to those who make up our military. Thank you.

originally posted by: Blister
I know for a fact you ain't done squat for me, mate. Nor for thousands of innocent victims of US terrorist policy.

Do you live in the USA? If not then why would you think that our military needs to do anything for you? They don't and your negative comments about US veterans is irrelevant. If you live in the USA then the very fact that you are able to freely get on the internet and speak your mind is a direct result of the fact that we have a strong military so no country dares to straight out attack us.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
That's fine, though. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. A little respect for a fellow human being would be nice but I guess that's too much too expect.

You make me smile.

originally posted by: Jainine

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
I truly did not know today was Vets day as I don't pay attention to holidays.

That's an unbelievable statement to me.

Eh, not really. I didn't know it was until a poster mentioned it in the thread. Goes to show how important Veterans Day is to this household, what with the vet spouse who wasn't aware of it until he was given a free lunch at work yesterday. He didn't care in the slightest, just another day for my husband. TSA's not the only one who missed the memo yesterday, in other words.

originally posted by: TheSpanishArcher
a reply to: ParasuvO

That's fine, though. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. A little respect for a fellow human being would be nice but I guess that's too much too expect.

The Irony of this last bit is quite large and amusing.

a reply to: projectvxn

Everything you did was for the afghans hahahah

Sorry... But between afghan and iraq there have been over a million civilian dead.. Yup I'm sure they're very pleased lmao... Jokes...

The OP is dead right and this bullcrap about fighting for rights to express opinions are just that, utter bullcrap used to try and excuse all the death and destruction. You are actually making the world a LESS safe place to be because all those dead civilians have families you know! What would you guys do if your country was invaded and your family slaughtered or tortured?

Yeah exactly!

EDIT: But hey I don't blame you for coming out (all you "soldiers") to try and defend your actions, I mean what other choice do you have? Not like you can agree with the OP as that will make you admit what you are eh

a reply to: TheSpanishArcher

We've been hardened over the years making sacrifices beyond your comprehension. You sit back and type in this forum that you may not have liberty to even read if you lived in certain other countries. I guess the only resource you have ever learned from is ATS. Guess it's time to step out of your hole and meet the rest of the world. I bet you have a relative that has served the armed forces as most people do. But, I bet you wouldn't have the balls to confront them in the same manner. You sound like a hypocrite and thats about it. Enjoy your freedom and bash the individuals that protect them on a daily basis...your a real winner!

a reply to: amicktd
Not supporting spanisharchers view here as I don't agree with all the points he is making but you post is kind of a good example of what I think he getting at.
Why should members of armed forces be given automatic respect based on their choice to serve?
There are many good arguments that serving under the governments of the last 15 years (or more) is morally wrong however that is a judgement for each individual. I don't think members of the forces should be condemned for their choice to volunteer any more than I think someone should be condemned for disagreeing with it.
Quite apart from that I doubt most people join up out of high ideals about protecting freedoms.
I give respect based on the individual regardless if they have a uniform or not.

originally posted by: amicktd
a reply to: TheSpanishArcher
Enjoy your freedom and bash the individuals that protect them on a daily basis...your a real winner!

But that's the crux of the argument -- there's no invading armies on the borders you're fighting against to "protect us". So it's inaccurate to say you're protecting anyone's freedoms with the lack of any direct threats. Extremists halfway around the planet commiserating in foreign lands don't exactly count. I don't think it can be spelled out much more clearly here, really. To put it very bluntly, you're not the politician writing the laws that spell out our freedoms, you're not the politician redacting freedoms on the promise of more safety. Those whom are withholding our freedoms, taking them away, those you'd otherwise be fighting against if they were foreigners invading --- are your bosses. How are you protecting us, militarily, from that?

originally posted by: Jainine

originally posted by: Blister
I know for a fact you ain't done squat for me, mate. Nor for thousands of innocent victims of US terrorist policy.

Do you live in the USA? If not then why would you think that our military needs to do anything for you? They don't and your negative comments about US veterans is irrelevant. If you live in the USA then the very fact that you are able to freely get on the internet and speak your mind is a direct result of the fact that we have a strong military so no country dares to straight out attack us.

It's gotten to this level of absurdity has it? If our military wasnt pillaging other countries at the orders of corporate controlled superiors our internet access would be totally screwed....Smfh.. Somehow i do not see the logic in that. Possibly because it doesn't exist.

Good job OP look what you've started lol.

a reply to: Bundy
I love how people say pillaging and saying all this stuff about the military when not many people have experienced life as a soldier. We have strict ROE and if you talk to a lot of local nationals we deal with on a regular basis they have no problem with us. Like where I am deployed right now the locals love us. When we go into the town and spend money we stimulate their economy. We have volunteers working with orphans and giving them an education. We give them jobs on the camp and the ones we employ make pretty good money especially when you compare it to what the rest makes. We give them medical supplies and our military doctors go into town regularly to help the citizens. We do a lot more good than what people think.
When a lot of my battle buddies got deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq they were blown up, shot at, and had mortars dropping on them on a daily basis. But we still had locals working on the FOB and was working with the afghan and Iraqi armies. So if you're going to talk crap then get the facts first.

originally posted by: Nyiah
But that's the crux of the argument -- there's no invading armies on the borders you're fighting against to "protect us"....How are you protecting us, militarily, from that?

Then the crux of your argument fails. The reason there are no invading armies coming into the United States is because we have a strong military. If we didn't have active duty military and veterans who volunteered to be in the military, then we'd be wide open and we would have been taken over. The simple fact that we have a strong standing army with firepower is what is protecting you and your right to complain on the internet.

You think that if we abolished the US military that we wouldn't be over run in a matter of days? Wide open borders. Starving overcrowded China wanting our wheat fields in Kansas. Russia wanting our Alaskan oil fields. Venezuela and Mexico wanting our untapped oil fields on and off shore. Japan wanting our fishing fields off Alaska and expansion in the Alaskan Islands to relieve their overcrowding. etc etc You really think they'd leave us alone to enjoy our freedoms and keep our country?

Let's be real.

a reply to: Jainine
So, going with the military equivalent of cops standing around the donut shop then? The shop's not going to be robbed with them in there, not unless someone's really stupid. If the gaggle of POs left, yeah, odds of robbery go up. Same idea with the military. However, that doesn't mean that flock of cops standing around the donut case is actively doing anything to prevent crime other than their presence in the shop as a deterrent. The same applies for the military -- just because they exist outside of active wars doesn't mean the entire force is due credit for actively continuing domestic peace. Make any sense?

a reply to: Jainine
But it is clearly not an binary choice. There is world of options between not having a military at all and supporting the pointless overseas adventures ordered by politicians.

originally posted by: Bundy

originally posted by: Jainine

originally posted by: Blister
I know for a fact you ain't done squat for me, mate. Nor for thousands of innocent victims of US terrorist policy.

Do you live in the USA? If not then why would you think that our military needs to do anything for you? They don't and your negative comments about US veterans is irrelevant. If you live in the USA then the very fact that you are able to freely get on the internet and speak your mind is a direct result of the fact that we have a strong military so no country dares to straight out attack us.

It's gotten to this level of absurdity has it? If our military wasnt pillaging other countries at the orders of corporate controlled superiors our internet access would be totally screwed....Smfh.. Somehow i do not see the logic in that. Possibly because it doesn't exist.

Good job OP look what you've started lol.

Our military is "pillaging?" The only few souvenirs I brought home from deployment, I bought from local vendors except for a single shemagah the original owner no longer needed.

What is this "pillaging" you speak of?

originally posted by: Jainine

originally posted by: Nyiah
But that's the crux of the argument -- there's no invading armies on the borders you're fighting against to "protect us"....How are you protecting us, militarily, from that?

Then the crux of your argument fails. The reason there are no invading armies coming into the United States is because we have a strong military. If we didn't have active duty military and veterans who volunteered to be in the military, then we'd be wide open and we would have been taken over. The simple fact that we have a strong standing army with firepower is what is protecting you and your right to complain on the internet.

You think that if we abolished the US military that we wouldn't be over run in a matter of days? Wide open borders. Starving overcrowded China wanting our wheat fields in Kansas. Russia wanting our Alaskan oil fields. Venezuela and Mexico wanting our untapped oil fields on and off shore. Japan wanting our fishing fields off Alaska and expansion in the Alaskan Islands to relieve their overcrowding. etc etc You really think they'd leave us alone to enjoy our freedoms and keep our country?

Let's be real.

How long until our military activities actually provoke an attack on US soil?(again) I suppose we can all thank you when that happens.