Bodies of 286 Women Found in Donetsk

a reply to: DJW001

Frankly, no, i don't.

Are you saying the number 286 is akin to someone blurting out the word 'cabbage', when asked to name a vegetable?

Or the colour Red, when asked for a colour?

What if the number is actually 286, it's a perfectly natural number and would apply if there is 286 bodies...if there were 287 bodies, would you expect the count to simply skip over 286 to get to 287?

a reply to: MysterX

It will be shown to be true, images and so on will be forthcoming, or it will be shown to be false.

No, some people will continue to believe it is true indefinitely, despite the complete absence of evidence. You need only visit the Aliens & UFOs Forum to confirm this.

a reply to: MysterX

What if the number is actually 286, it's a perfectly natural number and would apply if there is 286 bodies...if there were 287 bodies, would you expect the count to simply skip over 286 to get to 287?

No. In real life, people would report the discovery of a mass grave. They would speculate that there were dozens of bodies. Then they would speculate there were hundreds of bodies. Over the course of many days and weeks, they would report at least fifty, at least one hundred... over 150, 180, finally they would have an exact number. That's what "counting" is... a process. 286 is a number unsupported by any visible process. It was therefore chosen randomly.

a reply to: DJW001

There's a simple method used for millennia to arrive at an exact number, whether we're talking about bodies, apples or houses.

You count them and arrive at a total.

Use a piece of knotted string, an abacus, a pen and paper or a number clicker it's all the same.

Counting is simple, it's fast and usually quite accurate + or - 1 or 2.

I expect this is what they did, nothing magical or extraordinary, they took a day or two and just counted the corpses.

It's done all over the world, everyday...counting that is, not necessarily counting corpses.

a reply to: MysterX

I expect this is what they did, nothing magical or extraordinary, they took a day or two and just counted the corpses.

Who are "they?" Which two days did they count? Why did they say nothing while they were counting? What did they do with the bodies as they counted them? Did they put them in bags or boxes? Did they call in the Red Cross to help them? Did they call in OSCE to observe the process? Did they perform autopsies as they went along? All of this would have been part of the process of counting the bodies had it happened in real life.

"286" is a real number of dead bodies in exactly the same way that "the Pleiades" is a place that aliens come from.

a reply to: DJW001

When and if more information comes to light, we'll probably be privy to the answers to those questions.

Why do you ask questions i couldn't possibly know?

While i'm at it, perhaps you could tell me the colour of the wall to my right?

a reply to: MysterX

When and if more information comes to light, we'll probably be privy to the answers to those questions.

That is the point. We would have all of that information before we have the precise number.

Why do you ask questions i couldn't possibly know?

If the statement were true, you would already know those answers; the fact that you don't have that information is strong evidence that the statement is not true. The number 286 was chosen to create the impression of precision. In your imagination,you have conjured up "freedom fighters" grimly counting dead women stack up neatly like firewood. It's rubbish. Please read Proofiness: How You're Being Fooled By Numbers, by Charles Seife. It will open your eyes to media lies like the one in this thread.

While i'm at it, perhaps you could tell me the colour of the wall to my right?

Statistically, it is likely to be white or beige. More than that I can't say.

So

It may or may not have happened

but it most likely didn't because the ability to count bodies seems very questionable.

a reply to: DJW001

I suppose given the horrors we are exposed to almost daily, of man's inhumanity and animalistic behaviour, especially during conflict, it is well known that these atrocities of raping and murdering Womenfolk and in many cases their children as well, occurs in every single recorded conflict.

In many, it is touted as a tactic of war, to instil horror and panic among the civilian population.

This is why it is so easy to believe this happened, as there is more than enough precedent on this kind of slaughter of civilians.

Kiev is happy to bomb and shell Women and children in their flimsy homes, yet it's somehow beyond comprehension that the same troops would be adverse to torture and murder face to face?

That's naive at best.

Here's some sobering facts for you.

Women's bodies have become part of the terrain of conflict, according to a new report by Amnesty International.

Rape and sexual abuse are not just a by-product of war but are used as a deliberate military strategy, it says.

The opportunistic rape and pillage of previous centuries has been replaced in modern conflict by rape used as an orchestrated combat tool.

Or from the same BBC report;

From the systematic rape of women in Bosnia, to an estimated 200,000 women raped during the battle for Bangladeshi independence in 1971, to Japanese rapes during the 1937 occupation of Nanking - the past century offers too many examples.

So what motivates armed forces, whether state-backed troops or irregular militia, to attack civilian women and children?

Gita Sahgal, of Amnesty International, told the BBC News website it was a mistake to think such assaults were primarily about the age-old "spoils of war", or sexual gratification.

Rape is often used in ethnic conflicts as a way for attackers to perpetuate their social control and redraw ethnic boundaries, she said.

BBC report into deliberate Military rape of Civilians

I'd say Ukraine more than qualifies as an ethnic conflict, wouldn't you?

IOW, i'm more ready to believe this happened more than believe it did not, because it is exactly what does happen in these conflicts, it is used as a terror weapon, as the BBC article explains.

As i say though, knowing that it regularly and deliberately is perpetrated in almost every modern conflict is not proof that it happened here...but sometimes proof is thin on the ground, especially if war crimes trials are going to result and we have to realise this happens often in ethnic conflicts, and rape and murder of Women and Children is seen by most combatants as a valid tactic of war.

a reply to: DJW001

Why would i have those answers if this is true?

It is true that MH17 was brought down over Ukraine and 100's of people died, but where are the facts of how, who and why it was brought down?

We don't have them...we have our theories, we have everyone blaming everyone else and at the end of it we have nothing more than speculation, 100's of dead bodies and an airliner sized pile of scrap metal.

So much for having all the answers before the questions mate.

a reply to: MysterX

In other words, you want to believe this happened whether it did or not. You are suffering from confirmation bias.

a reply to: MysterX

Why would i have those answers if this is true?

Because there would be evidence and documentation to back up the claim

It is true that MH17 was brought down over Ukraine and 100's of people died, but where are the facts of how, who and why it was brought down?

We know MH17 was brought down because there is physical evidence. We do not know who did it because there is insufficient evidence to draw solid conclusion. The OP alleges that something happened without any physical evidence whatsoever. What's more, despite the lack of evidence, it is claimed that the perpetrators are known!

We don't have them...we have our theories, we have everyone blaming everyone else and at the end of it we have nothing more than speculation, 100's of dead bodies and an airliner sized pile of scrap metal.

Yes, exactly! Hundreds of bodies loaded into boxcars, all photographed and tweeted about. MH17 was the real deal. Where are the boxcars of dead women in Krasnoarmeisk?

a reply to: DJW001

Perhaps i am, although given the precedents i mentioned, that you didn't mention, i'd say i have more reason to be inclined to believe this happened than otherwise.

We'll see i suppose.

Further debate is going to be circular, so is pointless and a waste of time.

If i notice anything else that supports or refutes this atrocity, i'll be sure to let you have the details unless it's already posted by others.

Have a good day.

a reply to: DJW001

You're deliberately ignoring the point of mentioning MH17.

Why?

The point made was that you claim i should have all the answers before i even ask the questions, i'm pointing out that other than the physical evidence of MH17 itself, we have no answers to the questions that crash raises, so we have plenty of questions..and not plenty of answers...exactly the opposite of what you claim we should have if it really happened...MH17 really happened, that isn't in dispute, the lack of answers and the need for questions is.

a reply to: MysterX

The point made was that you claim i should have all the answers before i even ask the questions, i'm pointing out that other than the physical evidence of MH17 itself, we have no answers to the questions that crash raises, so we have plenty of questions..and not plenty of answers...exactly the opposite of what you claim we should have if it really happened...MH17 really happened, that isn't in dispute, the lack of answers and the need for questions is.

You have it exactly backwards. We know that MH17 happened because we can answer all of the following questions:

Where did the wreckage land?
What condition was the wreckage in?
What was the filed flight plan?
How many passengers were on board?
What were their names?
When did it crash?
What was the weather like on that day?
Who visited the scene of the crash?
What happened to the bodies?

Etc, etc. We know nothing, absolutely nothing about the alleged massacre's time,location, whereabouts, whereabouts and condition of the bodies, and so forth. Oddly, we do have an extremely precise number... and an extremely precise accusation of guilt. And that is all. If you cannot learn to detect the scent of BS this obvious, you run the risk of being taken advantage of.

a reply to: DJW001

There you go again.

Are you attempting to make it seem i don't believe MH17 happened?

MH17 HAPPENED..OK?

Again, i am referring to your comments, used several times now, that IF this massacre had in fact happened, we ought to have all of the answers and know almost every aspect of the what's, who's and why's all the way down to and including who did the count, when did they count, were the bodies loaded onto trains or put into body bags or boxes, and all of the other intricate details you seems to think we'd categorically know by now.

I know MH17 was brought down, i know there is a physical crash site and i know many people were murdered...yet we don't know the important answers, like we do not yet have the answers you mention, that you seem to think we ought to already have if the massacre happened.

MH17 happened, and we still don't have the answers we ought to have by now from that atrocity either. Going by your logic, we ought to have had all those answers before the debris had finished falling from the sky, as that is what your essentially saying we ought to have with this situation, and that is clearly out of the question as yet.

....We're flogging a dead horse aren't we.

a reply to: MysterX

Again, i am referring to your comments, used several times now, that IF this massacre had in fact happened, we ought to have all of the answers and know almost every aspect of the what's, who's and why's all the way down to and including who did the count, when did they count, were the bodies loaded onto trains or put into body bags or boxes, and all of the other intricate details you seems to think we'd categorically know by now.

How do we know MH17 happened? Why do you believe the massacre in the OP happened?

I know MH17 was brought down, i know there is a physical crash site and i know many people were murdered...yet we don't know the important answers, like we do not yet have the answers you mention, that you seem to think we ought to already have if the massacre happened.

How is it that Zakharchenko can allegedly supply the important answer-- who did it-- but cannot provide any of the easy answers? How can you explain that?

This reminds me of that movie TAKEN, where these women are being used in a prostition ring, sold as sex slaves and the womens fate are sealed and disappeared in the vast black market . I believe this is probably what is going on, maybe not with this story, or maybe so. Its a disgusting act that we as a species need to fix. How can we move forward as a species if we are still acting like barbariac pigs.

a reply to: Glassbender777

As for the thousands of "missing" women, does anyone suppose they might simply have fled Donetsk to safety elsewhere? Why are people so quick to believe stories of atrocities?

I'm curious: would someone who starred this post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

please explain why you gave it a star?