Disinformation Agents Need Not Apply, We Have Believers

Wish sites like these had a voting system, that would help the readers manage and reorganize posts. For example, personal arguments between two individuals that concern no one else. After (X) number of votes, the whole conversation based on key words would become a subcategory under the same title, accessible as organized list of other deemed subcategories.

The result would make almost all subjects a short read, unless you wanted to read the reaction. Which could be easily accessed from many flavors of separated content. Though, the idea probably would be flawed based on others having an agenda. Since relevant comments could be moved inappropriately, with enough votes.

a reply to: Aliensun

I think you should watch the movie 'mirage men', it claims the exact opposite of what you're saying. That the government actually encourages people to believe in UFO's to cover up military tests. One man in it, rick doty, claims that he drove one man, a friend in the end, to insanity because of his job as a mirage man, making him believe in UFO's over reality, that what he was seeing and hearing was actually gov't tests. so to say that the gov't is discouraging UFO's seems completely unfounded to me... Then again maybe they just made the whole documentary to cover up aliens/UFO's and throw us off even more about the whole thing. Eh, who really knows

a reply to: Jenisiz

Slightly off topic but part of your OP so here goes:

What the heck??? 45k for a double major? Where did you go to school???!!

I spent almost 170k on school and that was just for my first masters...

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Jenisiz

Slightly off topic but part of your OP so here goes:

What the heck??? 45k for a double major? Where did you go to school???!!

I spent almost 170k on school and that was just for my first masters...

Dual Enrollment through High School along with outside Community college. 45k in student loans over at ASU after the pre reqs and AS degree. It was a b!Tch lol Two semesters i took 20 and 21 credit hours... thank god for overides. What did you major in? That's hefty...

a reply to: Jenisiz

First time around was Atmospheric Physics and Dynamics.

the government has used their best people to come up with disinformation.
and now the ball is rolling ever one does it.
they buried us with fake stores. and it has work't.

are they hiding aliens?
or their own high tec ships.
or some thing else.

could they even fool you!

I'm with you on the gist of what you are saying.

Like yourself, I studied psychology, had some profound "experiences" through various means in my youth and teens, that perhaps opened my mind a bit. Enough perhaps to be open to the possibility of alternative history, the existence of extraterrestrial life, and so on.

However, I also have three college degrees, and work in policy and development work that demands evidence-based interventions and policy making. Basically the scientific method, data, etc. That could be health, education, mental health, or economics.

So while enjoying reading this stuff, I really try to be open but also have a very high bar for accepting anything. You are right that perhaps if more members had very strict evidence-based outlooks and more training in such things, the amount of bull on here might go down.

But that also goes for the religious extremists on here, the far right wingers who believe in a mythological 'Merica, and countless other "faith-based" people.

Having said that, we do have to leave room for intuition, especially after one HAS studied a lot of the information and data across history. I can't prove that there is some kind of higher meaning to this reality, but even as a scientifically trained person I really shy away from complete materialistic Darwinism, which posits zero meaning.

originally posted by: Jenisiz
Since having 2 NDE ' S as a child and coming from a very twisted family, I did what a number of individuals with confusing pasts do. I studied psychology. In an attempt to better understand myself. I majored in physics as well. 45k later and a job secured as a BX Therapist, I left my Tech Fab job to change the world. After years of working Holidays and regular trips to psych wards I found people to be beyond helping unless they were ready to help themselves. And most important, a lie is a way to alter someone's perspective of yourself usually because you find the truth shaming or suffer from low self-esteem. And unfortunately, everyone's cups are so full of opinions they're not willing to empty any out to make room for knowledge.

I've lurked ATS for YEARS and finally joined 4-5 years ago feeling my credentials and education may benefit some here. Sadly after years of participating, I don't think it has. Why?

The number of wild claims on this forum is astronomical. ATS is quickly losing its credibility in the UFO fields and it's not due to any disinfo agents claimed to be lurking but by those claiming to be whistle blowers and eager believers. First and foremost, any claims preached should provide proof. Simply basing merit on your forum credentials is a joke. Anyone can look like a pro in any subject on a forum with a simple Google search. If you're claiming to be an astronaut and to have spent years immersed in a massive conspiracy and can't even provide a single picture then I beg of you to refrain from posting. You're not helping move us towards disclosure, you're only seeking attention that is better utilized analyzing actual stories that have data in need of review.

There is no excuse for producing false information other than to discredit mine and other serious researches intelligence. If you believe something to be true but don't have solid proof, then post it as opinion. Don't claim it to be true because it isn't. We skeptics are the ones with the UFO Phenomenon's best interest at heart. We search for proof that cannot be disproved. We don't choose to boost the egos of liars and have no desire to continue to give rise to hoaxes. ***Someone please explain to me how making threads with wild claims and no proof helps with anything. Please explain to me how abandoning the same thread when lies are challenged and then signing up as a different user to continue making wild claims is beneficial to this movement? It isn't.

Those of you who are easy to believe and attack skeptics are simply encouraging groups like Project Serpo and others. Titor's LLC for example has made hundreds off this. And no matter how much is proved to be false, because you think there is something going on, you latch on to the story as completely true and defend it. Even going as far as making up lies yourself. Come on ATS, you can't expect the government to come clean when our own members can't.

Again I'll reiterate. There is a difference between an experience and undeniable proof. How about we keep that in mind when posting. If I can't hear your psychic link to the mothership on how to build an FTL engine than it's an experience until you slap one together. If you're a top secret test pilot for years and can't provide even a picture, then let me know and I'll pencil you in for a free session.

I remain here because sometimes there are bits and pieces of good info, but the amount of bs claims lately attracting cult like devotion is disturbing... especially when there's little to zero proof. I choose not to look away because I don't like watching my fellow ATS members get dragged down a rabbit hole of an attention whor3s own making.

Great rule of thumb is something my mother taught me...in fact there's three perfect rules one should always keep in mind if you really want to see progress in this field.

1. Is better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

2. Sagan "Exceptional claims require exceptional evidence"

3. Are you willing to bet your life on it.

If those three ideas were always in someone's mind prior to posting, I feel we'd already be in the know. But individuals like Valle whom have spent years actually trying to help and progress the community are constantly eclipsed by hoaxes and attention seeking individuals. AND IT'S CRAZY THAT MEMBERS CONTINUE TO STAND BY CLAIMS THAT CONTRADICT MORE CREDIBLE THEORIES WITH ACTUAL PROOF.

So in closing, there's no need for Disinformation Agents any longer. UFO movement is populated with enough contradicting hoaxers to keep us from focusing on credible claims for decades. Thanks Big Brother, but you can call off your "Mirage Men"...we'll take it from here.

originally posted by: blindprometheus
Wish sites like these had a voting system, that would help the readers manage and reorganize posts. For example, personal arguments between two individuals that concern no one else. After (X) number of votes, the whole conversation based on key words would become a subcategory under the same title, accessible as organized list of other deemed subcategories.

The result would make almost all subjects a short read, unless you wanted to read the reaction. Which could be easily accessed from many flavors of separated content. Though, the idea probably would be flawed based on others having an agenda. Since relevant comments could be moved inappropriately, with enough votes.

Exactly, the problem is the voting system is only as good as the awareness and information level of the majority of the community, and it could devolve into mob rule.

Jenisz,

I got my ed masters from ASU! When were you there?

Raymundoko, if one does all of their school work at many public schools, they could have far less than the amount you have. For example, in some states in-state tuition might be only $5-10,000 per year. In places like California it is more, like $13-16,000 or something. And, someone could obviously have either help or some kind of scholarship.

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Jenisiz

Slightly off topic but part of your OP so here goes:

What the heck??? 45k for a double major? Where did you go to school???!!

I spent almost 170k on school and that was just for my first masters...

Dual Enrollment through High School along with outside Community college. 45k in student loans over at ASU after the pre reqs and AS degree. It was a b!Tch lol Two semesters i took 20 and 21 credit hours... thank god for overides. What did you major in? That's hefty...

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Jenisiz

Slightly off topic but part of your OP so here goes:

What the heck??? 45k for a double major? Where did you go to school???!!

I spent almost 170k on school and that was just for my first masters...

What are your two (or more) grad degrees in?

originally posted by: InfamousSiren
a reply to: Aliensun

I think you should watch the movie 'mirage men', it claims the exact opposite of what you're saying. That the government actually encourages people to believe in UFO's to cover up military tests. One man in it, rick doty, claims that he drove one man, a friend in the end, to insanity because of his job as a mirage man, making him believe in UFO's over reality, that what he was seeing and hearing was actually gov't tests. so to say that the gov't is discouraging UFO's seems completely unfounded to me... Then again maybe they just made the whole documentary to cover up aliens/UFO's and throw us off even more about the whole thing.

Eh, who really knows

This is an interesting hypothesis I have heard before. Which would mean many of the movies and all that are part of the propaganda. But there is not really conclusive proof of that either. A middle hypothesis some have is that it is both. That some seem to be man made and others not. Even if the government did figure out how to make crazy tech that seemed extraterrestrial, it wouldn't preclude the existence of extraterrestrials.

What sayeth thou about Bill Cooper?

originally posted by: schuyler
One of my frustrations is when I am skeptical I get tarred with the anti-UFO brush. This is so far from the truth as to be laughable. I have over 250 UFO books in my personal collection, dating back into the fifties with some of the wonderful classics such as Adamski and Bethurum. I was a member of Mufon when Andrus was still Director. I remember talking to him about the need to get a web site and listening to him tell me was too busy for such nonsense. I have been on scene (as in: In my rocking chair reading) as many of the classic UFO flaps happened. I have studied intensely a few of them: Ed Walters, Billy Meier, Steven Greer. I've written articles in the field. I was at the UFO Museum in Roswell a few days ago. I've been reading this stuff since I was a kid (in the fifties!)

So when someone shows up and enthusiastically waxes eloquent on how cool Billy Meier is I know they just are ignorant, but I find myself saying, Oh, God, not THIS again! It has been beat to death years ago. So I will point out a few threads this new person might want to avail himself of, and THEN he turns all, "You are a skeptic and a disinformation agent!" on me.

Well, no. It's just that I know a whole lot more about this stuff than he does and he doesn't know what you are talking about. That's all. I do admit that having been in this field for so long as turned me more skeptical than I was. I thought Billy Meier was promising. I have the coffee table books. I thought Ed Walters was promising. I thought Steven Greer was promising. But when you look into what they have done, you find fraud. They've been caught. And it's not just little stuff subject to misinterpretation. You can find the parts for the Billy Meier ray gun on eBay, for God's sake. They are made of plastic. Are you seriously suggesting this is disinformation?

But when people are confronted with these facts, some of them dug up by people right here on ATS, and they STILL "believe," what you are dealing with is not objective observers seeking the truth. You're dealing with believers, people who want so much to believe that they will at any cost. It's a religion, a classic Cargo Cult, where the Space Brothers will come from the sky bringing peace through technology and we'll all live happily ever-after.

So where a truly objective viewer would look at that piece of plastic on eBay that was "Made in China," compare it to the Billy Meier Ray Gun and say, "Yup, it's looking pretty bad for Billy." the believer will say, "That's disinformation planted there by the CIA!" Is there any proof of that? Of course not. It's made up. The "disinformation" is the believer himself claiming the plastic Ray Gun is a CIA plant.

And that means, pretty much, that those who claim others are "disinformation agents, including right here in this thread!" have no credibility at all.

Does that mean there's no such thing as UFOs? Of course not. Nobody ever said that. Don't be stupid.

But this extends beyond simple social acceptance, personal experience, or mental challenges.

Most people have little training in evidence-based thinking, the scientific method, logic, deductive reasoning, and so on. Their minds and views generally speaking are not trained nor developed in these ways of thinking. Simple examples of this are that a huge percentage of people commit the logical fallacy of over-generalizing or over-extrapolating. I can't tell you how many times in print or in person I've heard people say something like look at what this group of Muslims did, see, all Muslims are X, Y, and Z. And I've heard similar claims for women, men, various races, etc ad infinitum.

This is often why we educators and a lot of educational evidence across countries support the idea that a cure for many kinds of societal ills and ignorance is education and mental training.

originally posted by: Jenisiz

originally posted by: Thecakeisalie
The key word in UFO is Unidentified. Anything beyond that is speculation.

However not every speculator is a liar or an opportunist-But some are. Many people have cashed in on their X files fan fiction and yet people still pay good money to see them on stage.

These people muddy the waters and whenever that happens credible anecdotal evidence gets swept under the rug.

The number one thing I see here is people willing to accept any proof because they themselves have had some type of experience and are striving to not be viewed as outcasts even though several want to be socially accepted more than most. They adopt the rationale that if group A has had an experience then it can be used to justify their own. Often individuals like this have had issues in the past being accepted socially or believed in the area at hand.

a reply to: Jenisiz

That was my mistake. I was so pumped up on the college I got accepted to I went right away. In hind sight I should have done community college first.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Atmospheric Physics and Business...yeah, completely different directions....then I got into IT management...I'm all over the place.

I did atmospheric sciences as a job for about 7 years, almost all of it indirectly for the DoD.

Then I got into IT and only do atmospheric research projects as a hobby through colleagues from work and college.

originally posted by: raymundoko
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Atmospheric Physics and Business...yeah, completely different directions....then I got into IT management...I'm all over the place.

I did atmospheric sciences as a job for about 7 years, almost all of it indirectly for the DoD.

Then I got into IT and only do atmospheric research projects as a hobby through colleagues from work and college.

Cool, mine are education, one, and international development policy/management.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Originally I was just going to be a math or history teacher.

I'm working on Electrical Engineering now.

a reply to: Jenisiz

Wow! That was quite a display of your reality--which by the way you are entitled to.

But that's all it is, sister. A statement and a declaration of your own reality--your unique world.

To all the people who have seen UFO's with their own eyes, to all the astronauts who claim there is life elsewhere in this Universe, to all the intelligent people who have spent years studying cover-ups and the whole UFO phenomenon---- I apologize for this post.

She apparently woke up today and decided she had the nature of reality figured out. I look forward to her book, or her presidency, or her TV show entitled, "I Have the World All Figured Out."

Double Post. My apologies.

originally posted by: MRuss
a reply to: Jenisiz

Wow! That was quite a display of your reality--which by the way you are entitled to.

But that's all it is, sister. A statement and a declaration of your own reality--your unique world.

To all the people who have seen UFO's with their own eyes, to all the astronauts who claim there is life elsewhere in this Universe, to all the intelligent people who have spent years studying cover-ups and the whole UFO phenomenon---- I apologize for this post.

She apparently woke up today and decided she had the nature of reality figured out. I look forward to her book, or her presidency, or her TV show entitled, "I Have the World All Figured Out."

I've had several experiences in my life...I included a photo I've snapped of one of my most recent encounters and included it in my thread here. So I'm not sure what you mean... I've seen some interesting things which I've elaborated in my op and further down, I just guess I'm not adapt at preaching "truth" without solid evidence. I believe...I also believe several here jump to conclusions prematurely without any facts, and by the way I'm a him. I don't speak on a subject unless I'm knowledgeable in it and up to date on my facts...A good trait you might want to look into.

Edit: Had you thoroughly read the op you'd see I believe there's two types of believers... those that genuinely believe and those that "believe" as a means to an end. There's also a difference between having an experience and being a whistleblower.

Now if you're still following, some "believers", those that do as a means to an end do so for self esteem, noterity, money and or desire to convert others. It's a widely studied fact. These individuals are much more likely to join/start a cult or religious movement. Pretty obvious as the majority rely on blind faith or a stretching of the truth.