Report: The 'Sovereign Citizen Movement' is The Greatest Threat To American Security

a reply to: smithjustinb

This should be something I would think you would support Smith.
You know, supporting the Pre Emptive Doctrine of Big Govermnent in going after targets before they become threats, like you said you support attacking other countries and people before they even attack us.

It is the MO of Big Government

originally posted by: xuenchen
The video says Bundy is throwing away the Constitution !!!

What will happen if he does that?

If Obama can...So can he.

Peace

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: eriktheawful

LOL you think they don't already have a file on each of us?

Oh I know they have a file on me. I've even seen a large chunk of it (United States Navy Enlisted Service Record). Finger prints, the works.

I'm just amazed at how loose that word is used. "Terrorist":

a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.

a person who terrorizes or frightens others.

"Terrorism":

the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.

a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Some how these SC people just don't seem to fit the definition.

Personally I think they are wackos (I don't think anyone is above the law). But that doesn't make them "terrorists"

a reply to: LDragonFire

Many of these people on the Sovereign citizen list are referred to as the American Taliban. I have never met one who was no completely off there rocker but not all of them are insane. Some are quite passionate and intelligent Americans. The radicals make it hard for the more moderate. Same thing happening in the Muslim world.

a reply to: LDragonFire

While I do not support the patriot based militia movement due to the radical nature of much of its leadership, I think both the federal government and the Bundy Ranch kind of civilian armed supporter are treading a very fine and sharp line. The Tyrannical nature of our federal government cannot be denied; the government as a whole from the White House to the Supreme Court, to federal prosecutors across the nation must be aware of their institutions' appearance to the people, and that's speaking only to domestic policies since 2001.

False convictions. Heavily armed and armored police forces. Treatment of the press and response to the slightest perceived threat with overwhelming force. Not to mention the ongoing NSA intelligence gathering leaks. Add to that billions spent on over a decade of war, military interventions around the world, and government popularity is long into a state of possibly permanent deterioration.

Tyranny remains a historical basis for rebellion of the American colonies. What we have to work with, however, is an election system so overburdened with corruption, struggling to appease the demands of we the people for avoidance of that very strain of historical oppression, that now on both sides (that of the citizen and the federal government) people are seeing signs of an incoming, possibly inevitable, storm of resistance and I suspect it scares the hell out of everyone from the highest office to the homeless guy on the corner. Our system, so cleverly authored to prevent tyrannical oppression by government, has ceased working to that at end leaving a federal control mechanism that has grown more and more monstrous and powerful since the turn of the last century. I do not believe any government is capable of reducing its own size, or limiting its own power.

Thus what I think we're going to see is more and more armed standoffs between law enforcement and militia or even civil rights groups on the escalation to a massive boiling point. Once it all does boil over, I think the official government policy will continue to be self-defense at all costs even though some in power might realize the need for government to be reigned in, reduced and perhaps restructured. Every militia group that resists with force will likely be classified as terrorists; hunted, killed or tried for treason.

Speaking to the Sovereign Citizens, they're small potatoes in my opinion. Again, I see much of the leadership of these militia groups in a similar light as ministers of non-denominational churches or evangelists; men pushing personal agendas, on power trips--possibly willing to act on radical teachings, which essentially have nothing to do with preserving the freedom of the rest of the American people. They remind me of cult leaders and I fear their indoctrination of more malleable minds can lead to no good place.

originally posted by: links234

originally posted by: jude11
a reply to: LDragonFire
So Americans are more of a threat than Al Qaeda or ISIS?

To be clear, sovereign citizens are viewed as a greater threat to Americans than Islamic terrorists. Until 9/11 the deadliest terrorist attack on US soil was the Oklahoma City bombing.

Honestly, I'm more afraid of some right-wing nut with a gun than I am of some Muslim attacking me.

I think that fear is rational, but our cause is justified.

originally posted by: eriktheawful

WTH is wrong with this picture?

WTH is wrong with the big government apologists?

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
Drug cartels that engage in murder, human trafficking, slavery, prostitution, etc., - not so much.

Give them guns.

originally posted by: xuenchen
The video says Bundy is throwing away the Constitution !!!

What will happen if he does that?

Do liberals actually, in an outraged tone, use the words, "throwing away the Constitution!" in a sentence???

Wow. I've heard it all now.

originally posted by: jacobe001
a reply to: smithjustinb

This should be something I would think you would support Smith.
You know, supporting the Pre Emptive Doctrine of Big Govermnent in going after targets before they become threats, like you said you support attacking other countries and people before they even attack us.

It is the MO of Big Government

I didn't say, "and people". I am not for unjustified attacking of Americans because they are "too free". I am completely fine with bombing the crap out of terrorists in the Middle East.

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: jacobe001
a reply to: smithjustinb

This should be something I would think you would support Smith.
You know, supporting the Pre Emptive Doctrine of Big Govermnent in going after targets before they become threats, like you said you support attacking other countries and people before they even attack us.

It is the MO of Big Government

I didn't say, "and people". I am not for unjustified attacking of Americans because they are "too free". I am completely fine with bombing the crap out of terrorists in the Middle East.

Sorry, you do not get to pick and choose when you support the Mad Dog in defending their interests as they see it.

a reply to: LDragonFire

To be fair, with trust in all our institutions at or near all time lows, growing discontent and grievances with those institutions, scandals piling upon each other as if it were a dog pile, continued corporate/government revolving doors, unpunished white collared crime, severely punished minor crime by the citizen, and a population that is rapidly awaking to these facts and spreading the truth ... the government has a right to be worried, and should be.

I will say this, they are failing, and will continue to fail in their *attempts* to confiscate guns ... however, they will suck up all that ammo. The movement ought to remain peaceful as long as it can, however, they have fired many shots, when there is a "Boston Massacre" things will turn ugly. Should you be worried? Yes and no, I would just like to remind you we would be fighting for our homes, that is a tough force to beat ... look how well we did in Iraq and Afghanistan against unconventional/guerilla/asymmetric tactics. Also, electronics is our militarise weak point ... we are too dependent. I hope things can turn over peacefully, but I am not one of those people who think we are f'd if it tuns hot.

Some more links for you guys:
Megacities and the U.S. Army: Preparing for a Complex and Uncertain Future

Cities with populations of ten million or more are given a special designation: megacity. There are currently over twenty megacities in the world, and by 2025 there will be close to forty. The trends are clear. Megacities are growing, they are be-coming more connected, and the ability of host nation governments to effectively deal with their explosive growth and maintain security is, in many cases, diminishing. Megacities are a unique environment that the U.S. Army does not fully understand.

U.S. Army Techniques Publication 3-39.33: Civil Disturbances

ATP 3-39.33 provides discussion and techniques about civil disturbances and crowd control operations that occur in the continental United States (CONUS) and outside the continental United States (OCONUS). United States (U.S.) forces deploy in support of unified action, overseas contingency operations, and humanitarian assistance worldwide. During these operations, U.S. forces are often faced with unruly and violent crowds who have the intent of disrupting peace and the ability of U.S. forces to maintain peace. Worldwide instability coupled with U.S. military participation in unified-action, peacekeeping, and related operations require that U.S. forces have access to the most current doctrine and techniques that are necessary to quell riots and restore public order.

(U//LES) DHS Assessment: Domestic Violent Extremists Pose Increased Threat to Law Enforcement and Government Officials

(U//FOUO) After years of only sporadic violence from violent domestic extremists motivated by anti-government ideologies, I&A has seen a spike within the past year in violence committed by militia extremists and lone offenders who hold violent anti-government beliefs. These groups and individuals recognize government authority but facilitate or engage in acts of violence due to their perception that the United States Government is tyrannical and oppressive, coupled to their belief that the government needs to be violently resisted or overthrown. Historically, spikes in violence have followed high-profile confrontations involving the United States Government, such as Ruby Ridge and Waco. The April 2014 Bunkerville, Nevada standoff likely represents a similar event that could inspire further violence.

DHS Warns of “Domestic Violent Extremists” Targeting Government Officials, Law Enforcement

Good post OP.

originally posted by: jacobe001

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: jacobe001
a reply to: smithjustinb

This should be something I would think you would support Smith.
You know, supporting the Pre Emptive Doctrine of Big Govermnent in going after targets before they become threats, like you said you support attacking other countries and people before they even attack us.

It is the MO of Big Government

I didn't say, "and people". I am not for unjustified attacking of Americans because they are "too free". I am completely fine with bombing the crap out of terrorists in the Middle East.

Sorry, you do not get to pick and choose when you support the Mad Dog in defending their interests as they see it.

Yeah I do. If I wanted to hate the government at all times, I'd be a Libertarian. I'm a Republican.

When it comes to protecting Americans from foreign threats, I support the government's decisions and trust them to do the right thing. When it comes to protecting Americans from "sovereign people", I don't trust them, and I am against them.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
They tie up the court system with stacks of frivolous, nonsensical paperwork. People that actually need their day in court have to wait whilst the justice system sorts through all the garbage these people throw at them.

Usually they're desperate people, being sold a scam "get out of taxes/jail" scheme. If whatever they are trying actually worked, the richest people and corporations in the USA would be using their secret tricks to get out of paying taxes.

A lot of them owe the IRS a lot of money, have back child support, or are locked in jail. If they don't want to pay taxes -- fine, move to another country. Roads don't pave themselves for free, and firefighters and EMT's don't work for free either.

My reinterpretation of your post Mystik ... no offence intended, it is how I see it, but using some of your words with alterations.
[Some of them] tie up the court system with stacks of frivolous, nonsensical paperwork. People that actually need their day in court have to wait [for the system itself] whilst the justice system [just tosses] the garbage [out with standard forms/procedure].

[Sometimes] they're desperate people, being sold a scam "get out of taxes/jail" scheme [other times they are highly intelligent people who realize they HAVE BEEN SOLD A SCAM]. If whatever they are trying actually worked, the richest people and corporations [*would* actually have to pay more taxes] in the USA [instead of far truly insidious means] to get out of paying taxes [rather than flat out not paying and stating so like a man].

A lot of them ["owe"] the ["IRS" or military industrial complex] a lot of money, [supposedly] have back child support [if they are not caring/providing for their child as is], or are [stereotyped as being] locked in jail [but actually probably live their life not bothering anybody]. [However, there are bad apples in every bunch that has given the most a bad name] If they don't want to pay taxes -- fine, [be selective in doing so with stringent stipulations as to their use]. Roads don't pave themselves for free, and firefighters and EMT's don't work for free either [nor do federal taxes go to these things, local taxes do]

a reply to: mcChoodles

Can't have people figuring out Psalm 82 now, can we.

Too late. Someone special is becoming very awake, already "knows", has a sharpie, and a special book.

Gehenna is Disneyland compared to The Void. They already know who they are. They fight human rights with every fiber of their being, and try to substitute it with oppression. Willfully.

a reply to: LDragonFire

There's no harm in a bunch of frustrated working class libertarians spouting absurd quasi-legalese arguments and everyone important knows that. This report shows two things -
1. They know they've gone beyond the pale and are going to provoke another Tim McVeigh and they are positioning themselves to reap the same benefit they did from the original (a quiet backing away by the sane majority of anti government idealists).
2. The Islamic terrorist threat is all smoke and mirrors.

originally posted by: Iamthatbish
No no no.

The number one threat to our safety is a fool with a belief that causes them to be willing to harm others due to their religion.

The Number one threat to you is your Government... They are telling you that you are the threat, it speaks for itself.

a reply to: AllSourceIntel

Really? Really? You do realize that local municipalities/counties/and all 50 states rely heavily on federal subsidies in addition to their own taxes. This is why more states don't change the speed limit -- federal funding for highways gets cut off.

Some of these sovereign citizen types have gone violent in the past, and have killed several LEO's -- this is why the FEDS are after them. People like the Unibomber and Timothy McVeigh are attracted to their ideology.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

Yes of course I realize that States rely on Federal subsidies for various things, but they need not be in all cases and ought to exercise their right not to and stand up against the power of the purse ... a movement that seems to be growing amongst the States where dozens have taken steps and measures to wean themselves of the federal tit. I suppose we can look up the data but I am not in the mood (tiredly listening to C2CAM) to dig up at this point how much subsidies go to State's for these purpose. I will concede if shown to be significant for sure though. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to see more take actions like that of Washington and Colorado to garnish additional revenue this year and 2016. Heavily though, I think depends on the State, mine was one of the first to break away from the federal speed limit.

Yes of course I realize some have been violent and target law enforcement. As I noted, a few bad apples. I am well aware of the Freeman Ranch Standoff and the Unabomber, both were only hours away from where I grew up. I am not defending this movement, simply stating one cannot group all of them together with those that are violent or those that get recruited within prison/jail. I am from Montana, the Canada border is 2.5 hours from my childhood home, I knew plenty of Sovereign Citizens in my life that acted as I explained, they simply wanted to be left alone ... in Montana, that’s what we all want, but they took it to no taxes, standing up for their rights, etc (no I did not know any at the stand off). For those interested since it was mentioned, the Unabomber's Manifesto makes a lot of good and valid points despite obviously flawed tactics. *Sigh* seems to be always the case.

originally posted by: smithjustinb

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: smithjustinb

Do you ever watch fox news?
I agree this ed guy is like the bill of MSNBC, but if you can't stand MSNBC then you need to understand that fox news is the other side of that coin. They both are on their far side their respected spectrum of the political scale.

Both sides of the same coin like good vs. evil. The coin is irrelevant.

And nice picture that makes 0 sense btw

It makes perfect sense. Liberals vote for more government and then when they're getting pepper sprayed in the face for breaking "curfew" laws and other liberal nonsense over regulation, they get mad and blame republicans. smh. There's no such thing as liberal logic.

Ummm, just a little question but where in the world do you get the idea that the girl getting pepper sprayed in the face has ANYTHING to do with curfew laws? I was actually down there that day on other business. What was occurring was those protesters were actually actively protesting the banks and were basically, marching down to a variety of banks, doing some chalk drawings, few minutes of protest and then moving on to the next bank. What happened next was a mounted police officer started using his horse to push into the group of protesters and one protester, presumably out of fear, swung out. Bam, pepper spray. That's how it happened. That's the actual context. Gosh darn devil is in those details because golly, those darn liberals were protesting the banks and their gosh darn federal bail outs being spent on bonuses. Logic abounds.

www.oregonlive.com...

Curfew, what a laugh. I suppose you failed to notice that the photo is a daytime photo. Happened around 1 pm iirc. I saw the line of riot police and got out of dodge.