The Seven Churches and The New Messiah

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Jesua is a variant of Jahoshuah, just like Joshua, Isaiah, Josva, Hosea, Yeshua, bar Jeshua (yes, there is one person in NT who is actually named "Son of Jesus"), and others. However Yehoshuah was long deprecated at the time of Jesus. Let's have a brief look at why this so:

From Wikipedia source:

The name יֵשׁוּעַ "Yeshua" (transliterated in the English Old Testament as Jeshua) is a late form of the Biblical Hebrew name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ Yehoshua (Joshua), and spelled with a waw in the second syllable. The Late Biblical Hebrew spellings for earlier names often contracted the theophoric element Yeho- to Yo-. Thus יהוחנן Yehochanan contracted to יוחנן Yochanan.[11] However, there is no name (aside from Yehoshua`) in which Yeho- became Ye-.

Jesus was most likely named ישוע Jesua or Jeshua, since both Jesus and his parents spoke first century Aramaic, the language spoken in Galilee at that time, and this is the Aramaic spelling of Yahoshuah used at the time.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

God/Jesus had many names...

Exodus 6:3

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Here's the first and greatest commandment...

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

When it's all said and done, he'll have a new name...

Revelation 3:12

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY new name.

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Yet you still can't point out anything that says that Jesus had a son. You're just trying to avoid the question.

Jesus, who is the Alpha and Omega, says in Revelation 21:7:

"The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son."

Pay close attention to "The one who conquers", and read the OP of this thread again, and pay close attention to the following, quoted from the OP if you had had the time to actually read through it:

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Ephesus ==> "To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."
Smyrna ==> "The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death."
Pergamum ==> "To the one who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone that no one knows except the one who receives it."
Thyatira ==> "The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star."
Sardis ==> "The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
Philadelphia ==> "The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name."
Laodicea ==> "The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne."

Now you see the light?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The one who conquers means EVERYONE who conquers. You have to read the surrounding context.

Here's what else Jesus and the Bible says...

Matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Hebrews 9:28

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

originally posted by: Ove38
The seven angels are seven Bishops of seven Church's in the first century, the whole book of Revelation is a dramatization of their great ministry work in the first century.

That sounds plausible. Though I wouldn't use the word Bishops, it has a certain Catholic ring to it. These churches were pre-Catholic. But the word used is ἀγγέλῳ "Angelos" which according to the Analytical Greek Lexicon by Samuel Baxter and sons, is dative singular of ἄγγελος or "Aggelos", and is given the definition: One sent, a messenger, angel (ἄγγελλῳ to tell, to announce).

Further, according to Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon about Strong's G32 ἄγγελος:

'The angels of the churches' [U: of Revelation 1-3] are not their presbyters or bishops, but heavenly spirits who exercise such a superintendence and guardianshipover them that whatever in their assemblies is worthy of praise or censure is counted to the praise or the blame of their angels also, as though the latter infused their spirit into their assembly"

So, I wouldn't call them the Bishops, but perhaps rather 'Guardians'?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

OH my goodness, good stuff, very close to what i always wondered, about the seven churches and their historical importance, Yes they all stood i believe on ancient temple sites

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

In Revelation 1 the Son of Man proclaims he is the Alfa and Omega. In Revelation 21 and 22, he who sits at the throne says he is the Alfa and the Omega. Are you saying Jesus is both sitting on the throne AND simultaneously lying in front of himself looking as though he had been slaughtered? And at the same time being his own son who has conquered and seated himself beside Jesus just as Jesus sat down on HIS Father's throne?

I understand this is awfully confusing for you, but: Make up your bloody mind!

That's exactly what the verse I quoted from Matthew 28:18 means.

Why do you put limitations on God? The One who was the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit? The Bible talks about this in great length, yet some will never understand.

Are you saying Jesus can be two people at the same time? One of them being a bizarre looking horned lamb standing before himself?

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” [ESV] Revelation 5:13

How do you explain that? How can Jesus both be the guy on the throne AND the Lamb in front of it?

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The one who conquers means EVERYONE who conquers.

So everyone is the son of God, and everyone are running around with iron rods smashing up pottery? Everyone has a throne inherited by their fathers? Common, you can't possibly believe such nonsense!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Fair enough, we are splitting hairs over Jesus' name, but you still havent proven that Revelation was written in 70 AD, nor have you shown any evidence to support your arbitrary rejection of Paul's letters. All you need to do is count the syllables. The bible in its original language comes equipt with its own timeline in its meter. A months worth of Hebrew is all you need to count syllables.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The names of the seven angels??

The preceding statements demonstrate the folly of attempting to construct a system of ecclesiastical polity from such a highly-figurative portion of Scripture as the Apocalypse. In the angel of the Church some have believed they have discovered the moderator of a presbytery; others, the bishop of a diocese; and others, the minister of an Irvingite congregation. But the basis on which all such theories are founded is a mere blunder as to the significance of an ecclesiastical title. The angels of the Seven Churches were neither moderators, nor diocesans, nor precentors, but messengers sent on an errand of love to an apostle in tribulation.

biblehub.com...

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

So everyone is the son of God, and everyone are running around with iron rods smashing up pottery? Everyone has a throne inherited by their fathers? Common, you can't possibly believe such nonsense!

John 1:12

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Think about it. Once everyone has been judged, death and hell have been destroyed, those who are left in Heaven will no longer need someone to rule over them because all will be perfect in God's house. However, that's not to be confused with the physical reign of Jesus with his followers here on earth during the Millennial period and before the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven.

God will be all in all and we will all share in his glory together after the New Jerusalem come down.

1 Corinthians 15:28

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

How do you explain that? How can Jesus both be the guy on the throne AND the Lamb in front of it?

Once again, the same way that he was capable of being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the First and the Last. Read this next verse carefully...

Matthew 28:19

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It says baptize them in "the name", not names.

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Jesus has power over all of heaven and earth, and yet you still try to hold him to some kind of human standard?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

It was written BEFORE 70 AD and before Paul arrived the scene, in Paul's time there were nine churches in Asia Minor:

www.ecclesia.org...

There is only one small window of time in which there were only seven churches in Asia. The early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. The reason for this is that the cities of Colosse, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were all destroyed by an earthquake around AD 61. Laodicea was rebuilt soon afterwards, but the other two cities were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

Besides, it seems the Temple was still standing, and the Temple was destroyed completely in 70 AD. The war machines used to destroy it is what I believe Jesus refers to as what's normally translated "the abomination of desolation" in Mark. 13:14 and Matthew 24:15.

However, I believe that Revelation 11:1ff is a reference to the newly opened Temple of Solomon in Brazil, and a time stamp. Given this scenario, the WTC Twin Towers were the two witnesses. The beast that destroyed them were then Al Qaida in Iraq, now IS (former ISIL/ISIS). The war of Rev. 6 is the War on Terror, and it will escalate to further heights, and sorry to tell you guys, reading through the prophecies, it will become a whole lot worse before it's getting any better. The Vatican, perhaps the whole of Rome, will be utterly destroyed, 1/3rd of the people in the world risk dying. May God have mercy!

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

How do you explain that? How can Jesus both be the guy on the throne AND the Lamb in front of it?

Once again, the same way that he was capable of being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the First and the Last. Read this next verse carefully...

Matthew 28:19

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

It says baptize them in "the name", not names.

So you have finally reached the conclusion that Jesus is a father after all? Or was he his own father perhaps? And yet again, you fail to explain how he can be two separate beings in one scene. One being the Alpha and Omega, sitting on a throne -- And at the same time he is walking among the four seraphs or looking like he is slain. Don't you see that you have a BIG problem explaining how it is possible to be two places at the same time, separated as two different individuals, one of them sporting seven horns.

How do you explain what Jesus says here:

The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. [ESV] Revelation 3:21

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Jesus has power over all of heaven and earth, and yet you still try to hold him to some kind of human standard?

Are you saying that Jesus is JHVH? And that he was to blame for all the horrors Jahveh put together in OT times? No wonder he was crucified. It's all magic to you isn't it? What does consequence matter?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Don't you see that you have a BIG problem explaining how it is possible to be two places at the same time,

God can be everywhere at the same time. He is not bound my time, space or physics that only your simple mind is capable of understanding.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Are you saying that Jesus is JHVH?

Yes. Jesus is God in the Old Testament, or rather, the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament that God spoke through.

a reply to: Deetermined

Yes, naming the angels would be difficult, for eventhough their given stars are revealed like I demonstrated in the OP, there's no telling which tradition one should use for support. The closest that comes to mind that was around in the time of Jesus and John, were the First Book of Enoch (there are quite a few more) lists Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, Uriel, Raguel, Remiel and Saraqael. However, other traditions list different ones, like Kabbalah or the Pseudepigrapha of the OT. That's why I hoped we could have a discussion around it and produce an educated guess for which angel guards which church and which regalium and so on. Not that the names are that important.

Traditionally Michael is the Sun and Gabriel is the Moon, not much bickering there, but there is no consensus on the other ones, both their names and their associated star. My guess is that Uriel is Mars with his swinging fiery sword, but in modern astrology Uriel is governor of or associated with Uranus.

Anyone?

a reply to: Deetermined

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [ESV] John 1:12

The way I read that verse it says: "whoever who is NOT born of flesh and blood, NOR by the will of man (whoever fits those criteria), they MAY turn out to be children of God." Do you know about anyone not born by the will of man?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

John 3:3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

a reply to: Deetermined
a reply to: Deetermined

OK. Please tell me how Jesus does this. Or are you saying he is you and me and the rest of us here on Earth past present and future? So if you rob Peter to pay Paul, you're actually mugging yourself in order to enrich another version of yourself, who is also Jesus? Are you saying that you are Jesus? I certainly isn't, I know that for a fact.